Insulation Values ?

If you need some advice but it isn't woodworking related, post here.
tusses
Subscriber
Posts: 3484
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 11:06 pm
Contact:

Insulation Values ?

Postby tusses » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:58 am

I'm thinking of insulating my walls from the inside.
The house is a 200yr old detached solid brick built (no cavity)

I'm wondering where I would find a list of R values of different materials and thicknesses.

Obviously the compromise is thickness over price for the best insulation value, so I dont bring the walls in too much.

I'm thinking baton out, insulate between, plasterboard/plaster over.

What about the plasterboard with the insulation already attached ?
Rockwool
Polystyrene
Thinsulate
Silver foil backed bubbles
etc etc

any more ideas to do this on a budget will be muchley appreciated :)

Cheers
Rich

modernist
Subscriber
Posts: 5085
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:31 pm
Location: Crich, Matlock
Contact:

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby modernist » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:29 am

I used 50mm PU foam backed plasterboard on dabs in a similar situation. Worked very well but possibly not the cheapest solution, but quick.
Cheers

Brian


Tune in, turn on with Scandi Modern, it's fab.

Visit my blog at http://modernistmullings.blogspot.co.uk

sainty
Subscriber
Posts: 2658
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:37 am
Location: southampton
Contact:

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby sainty » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:04 am

Have you considered these people, massive savings to be had without much outlay:

reduceyourheatingbills.com

;)

mrgrimsdale
Incredibly Regular Poster
Posts: 6901
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:02 pm

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby mrgrimsdale » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:11 am

tusses wrote:I'm thinking of insulating my walls from the inside.
The house is a 200yr old detached solid brick built (no cavity)

I'm wondering where I would find a list of R values of different materials and thicknesses.

Architect's Pocket Book is really good for this and other building info. Not too technical.

Obviously the compromise is thickness over price for the best insulation value, so I dont bring the walls in too much.

I'm thinking baton out, insulate between, plasterboard/plaster over.
I'm insulating first, battening out and insulating between

What about the plasterboard with the insulation already attached ?
Yes.
Rockwool
Not on walls, it needs to be rigid
Polystyrene
Yes
Thinsulate
Dunno. Doubt it somehow
Silver foil backed bubbles
Definitely no
etc etc
Kingspan, Celotex, Ecotherm etc. Seal all seams and fill all gaps. Air leakage from behind can cancel the insulation

any more ideas to do this on a budget will be muchley appreciated :)

Cheers
Rich
You get what you pay for and your labour will be a big part of the cost - so don't skimp on materials

tusses
Subscriber
Posts: 3484
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 11:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby tusses » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:37 am

sainty wrote:Have you considered these people, massive savings to be had without much outlay:

reduceyourheatingbills.com

;)


:lol:

tusses
Subscriber
Posts: 3484
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 11:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby tusses » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:41 am

modernist wrote:I used 50mm PU foam backed plasterboard on dabs in a similar situation. Worked very well but possibly not the cheapest solution, but quick.


how long ago did you do it ? do you notice a difference, comfort and bills ?

tusses
Subscriber
Posts: 3484
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 11:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby tusses » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:45 am

mrgrimsdale wrote:Architect's Pocket Book is really good for this and other building info. Not too technical



You get what you pay for and your labour will be a big part of the cost - so don't skimp on materials


Thanks. Looking for online really :)

and as for get what you pay for .,.. it has to balance the books in reduced fuel bills, else there is no point !

Labor it me, materials need to be best 'bang for buck' rather than just 'best'

cheers

DeanN
Subscriber
Posts: 85
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:06 pm
Location: Derbyshire
Contact:

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby DeanN » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:46 am

Wallrock do a thermal liner if you don't fancy the plasterboard route on all walls.

http://www.10elements.co.uk/index.php?o ... Itemid=208

thatsnotafestool
Subscriber
Posts: 4839
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:27 pm
Location: Oop North where it rains
Contact:

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby thatsnotafestool » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:16 pm

Do you also need a vapour barrier?

Also see if you can still get Kingspan seconds...as they are cheaper. http://seconds.co.uk/
NB NB NB Google Chrome threw up a warning when I took a look at this site.

Tusses - it comes down to the u-value ...which is so-much- heat-insulation per cm. And then how much it costs per cm...but then you already know that! My money is on Kingspan seconds. None of the others you list really give you that much in terms of heat-insulation. The insulated plasterboards have too thin insulation to be worth fitting IMO.

You could also search or ask on the green building forum but be aware of the tree-huggers.
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
Friedrich Nietzsche

tusses
Subscriber
Posts: 3484
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 11:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby tusses » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:27 pm

I always like to put some kind of vapour barrier up on the warm side, and the cold side too if there is a chance of damp coming in from outside and getting the insulation soggy. I tried cheap kitchen foil in a loft space once. applied it like wall paper , with paste !, theory was, it was moisture proof, and a heat reflector. It worked well.

Roger-M
Subscriber
Posts: 590
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:06 pm
Location: S. Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby Roger-M » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:25 pm

Battens would create a cold bridge which could attract condensation onto the surface above - remember that by insulating the walls they will automatically be colder after the job has been done. I would consider dot and dabbing Lafarge Thermalcheck K. There are various thicknesses, starting at 30mm (20.5mm phenolic foam insulation and 9.5mm plasterboard). This is the top spec of the 3 insulation boards they do - you get what you pay for. Allow a further 5mm for the dabs, then 3mm for a skim. The board has a built in vapour barrier so no need to add an extra layer. If you shop around you should be able to get it for about £40 per 8 x 4 sheet.

I bought mine from Walls and ceilings International in Bristol and after a bit of haggling on the phone I bought 14 sheets of 40mm for my extension for £42 per sheet. They are also in Alcester, Warwickshire. I found that their prices were sufficiently keen to make it worth the drive from Plymouth - 117 miles each way.
Cheers, Roger

User avatar
Doug
Subscriber
Posts: 2513
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:52 pm
Location: location location
Contact:

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby Doug » Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:51 am

Hi Rich,

I`d go down the dot & dab route.

I`m slowly working my way round a very big victorian house striping the old addled plaster off the walls & any external walls are dot & dabbed with Thermaline 35mm insulated plaster board.

I can`t go thicker as I`m matching up to the front face of the architrave around the windows (right hand side of photo) & then pinning a cover strip over the join

Image

I pay £20 a sheet & the best tip I can give you is to buy them as you need them, like veneered board without a balancing veneer insulated plaster board warps. I fetch mine from the merchants so I can check they been stored correctly & aren`t bent.

Also, if you do use them, once you`ve got your first board on run a line of adhesive down the whole length of the edge of that board running your trowel at an angle of 30 degrees**,then butt your next board into this. This will stop a crack forming in the plaster down the whole length of the board joint later on, you commonly see this in new houses & I think it looks 5hite.

Other than that, just make sure you don`t have any damp spots anywhere before you start & on porous backgrounds I like to lash the walls with a couple of coats of watered down PVA.


** No jig necessary, can be done freehand but jig if it aids confidence. Angle not critical & a single bevel is fine :lol: :lol: :lol:



& finally if you`re lucky you`ll find lovely lath & plaster like this :?


Image

tusses
Subscriber
Posts: 3484
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 11:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby tusses » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:17 am

cheers peep's - still not got any R values yet :D but it's looking like it will come down to cost. Like I said, I'm not wanting a 25yr turnaround on my investment before it's payed for itself !

Doug, in the past I like to use tapered edge boards and tape joints. Do you not need to do that with this stuff ?

Roger-M
Subscriber
Posts: 590
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:06 pm
Location: S. Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby Roger-M » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:35 am

tusses wrote:cheers peep's - still not got any R values yet :D


Top RH corner of this sheet! for Thermalcheck K.

Thermal Resistance R
30 mm = 0.94 m2K/W
40 mm = 1.50 m2K/W
50 mm = 1.98 m2K/W
60 mm = 2.58 m2K/W
70 mm = 3.08 m2K/W

Thermal Conductivity of Insulation

15-24mm = 0.024 W/mK
25-44mm = 0.023 W/mK

British Gypsum Gyproc Thermaline details here and product summary here. Considerably cheaper than Thermalcheck K, but based on the R Values given would appear to have only half the insulation value of Thermalcheck K for any given thickness of foam backing.

e.g 40mm thermalcheck K has an R value of 1.50 M2K/W compared to 0.80 M2K/W for 40mm Thermaline.

You pays your money and takes yer choice. Depends on how many sheets you need I suppose.
Cheers, Roger

tusses
Subscriber
Posts: 3484
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 11:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby tusses » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:29 am

see, thats a good example of why I wanted the R values .

It would make a huge difference for the same thickness.

I'm guessing polystyrene would be about the cheapest ? I'll see if I can get an R values for it , for comparison....

tusses
Subscriber
Posts: 3484
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 11:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby tusses » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:34 am

ok, ... wiki has it :lol:


table at bottom of page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-value_%28insulation%29

mrgrimsdale
Incredibly Regular Poster
Posts: 6901
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:02 pm

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby mrgrimsdale » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:45 am

k values w/mk (conductivity, lower the better)
fibreglass or mineral wool quilt .040
expanded polystyrene .035
polyurethane board .025
phenolic foam (Kingspan etc) .020

These are basic figures so any particular product will vary from these.

Best value materialwise is phenolic foam plus plasterboard separate e.g. kingspan is about £15 a sheet 2" x 8' x 4'
but involves more labour than insulated plaster board as one piece.

tusses
Subscriber
Posts: 3484
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 11:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby tusses » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:51 am

more here
http://www.allwallsystem.com/design/RValueTable.html

I can see cost will make all the difference.

interestingly, ply is better than plasterboard, so maybe I'll do some wooden paneling over the insulation ...

yes ... I know ply cost more than plasterboard ! :roll:

tusses
Subscriber
Posts: 3484
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 11:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby tusses » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:51 am

anyone know what the building regs say about wood paneling as a fire risk ?

User avatar
nickw
Subscriber
Posts: 2021
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:09 pm
Location: Cambridge
Contact:

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby nickw » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:50 am

Or indeed polystyrene.
Nick Webb, Fine Furniture, Cambridge
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Banjamin Franklin

tusses
Subscriber
Posts: 3484
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 11:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby tusses » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:05 am

nickw wrote:Or indeed polystyrene.


indeed !
but behind plasterboard it would be ok for the spec'd burn time.

Roger-M
Subscriber
Posts: 590
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:06 pm
Location: S. Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby Roger-M » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:32 am

tusses wrote:
nickw wrote:Or indeed polystyrene.


indeed !
but behind plasterboard it would be ok for the spec'd burn time.


If going for polystyrene backed, maybe need to think a little bit about fixing. If there's a fire will it all fall off the walls? Obviously cost is a consideration, but also ask yourself how many times you're going to go through this exercise, will heating costs rise or fall in both real and absolute terms over the next 15 - 20 years, and also strength for fixing any thing to it (pictures, mirrors etc).
Cheers, Roger

tusses
Subscriber
Posts: 3484
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 11:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby tusses » Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:05 pm

the thing is, we don't plan on being here more than 10 yrs.

Kids are just finishing their teens and we hope to be rid of them soonish :mrgreen:

Then we want to move somwhere near the coast, or lakes or not Coventry !

User avatar
Doug
Subscriber
Posts: 2513
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:52 pm
Location: location location
Contact:

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby Doug » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:32 pm

tusses wrote:
Doug, in the past I like to use tapered edge boards and tape joints. Do you not need to do that with this stuff ?



Yep you still use joint tape but the solid line of adhesive gives maximum support to the joint.

looking at the Thermaline link the boards I use are their plus range

modernist
Subscriber
Posts: 5085
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:31 pm
Location: Crich, Matlock
Contact:

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby modernist » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:35 pm

tusses wrote:
modernist wrote:I used 50mm PU foam backed plasterboard on dabs in a similar situation. Worked very well but possibly not the cheapest solution, but quick.


how long ago did you do it ? do you notice a difference, comfort and bills ?


20 years ago, yes and yes. A huge difference in both. It was notable that on a 300 year old brick and stone house there was a great deal of draught behind the boards and the walls were not vented. There was some draught out of sockets so they needed sealing and we sealed the surface with Gyproc waterproof sealant rather than board finish. I think I would use thistle if I did it again for cosmetic reasons.

I think, from my own experience of that and building timber frame houses, the condensation issues are often overstated.
Cheers

Brian


Tune in, turn on with Scandi Modern, it's fab.

Visit my blog at http://modernistmullings.blogspot.co.uk

tusses
Subscriber
Posts: 3484
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 11:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby tusses » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:12 pm

that's good to know, ta.

I think condensation is more of an issue of air movement where you dont want it, rather than cold transferring through batons etc. to the 'warm' side.

thatsnotafestool
Subscriber
Posts: 4839
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:27 pm
Location: Oop North where it rains
Contact:

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby thatsnotafestool » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:50 am

tusses wrote:that's good to know, ta.

I think condensation is more of an issue of air movement where you dont want it, rather than cold transferring through batons etc. to the 'warm' side.


Are you sure that is correct? Air movement keeps water vapour in the air, surely? Condensation occurs on a static surface when the dewpoint falls or something like that ;)
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
Friedrich Nietzsche

tusses
Subscriber
Posts: 3484
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 11:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby tusses » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:51 pm

By air moving where you dont want it , I meant, air moving through gaps in seals and joins through the insulation you put up, through to the cold surface behind.

Like a bad join in the vapor barrier for instance. Then you get a condensation problem that builds up and you don't know about it until its quite bad.

I have air getting in behind my roof insulation in my workshop somehow (tin roof).
It only shows up when its down to about freezing point outside, but then I get the odd drip sometimes in the morning coming through where the joists are :(

My best guess is where the log burner flue goes up through the roof, but it's only this time of year I can track it down !

mrgrimsdale
Incredibly Regular Poster
Posts: 6901
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:02 pm

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby mrgrimsdale » Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:16 pm

You could track it down from the outside with a thermal imaging camera, if you can get your hands on one.

The other big prob is cold air percolating through the other way and bypassing the insulation. Doesn't necessarily have to reach the room as a draught, though it may well - through electric fittings and other orifices. Even if it doesn't it can still cool the wall e.g. the back face of the plaster board.

tusses
Subscriber
Posts: 3484
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 11:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby tusses » Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:27 pm

yes ... as an after thought, I insulated in between the joists (6x2) so there is the possibility that there are leaks all over the place.
I could go round with a sealing gun (which I may still do), but the problem only shows up a few days a year, so I have lived with it so far.

It's worst if I have it really warm for spraying (water based) in a day, then frost over night. Other than that, it's just annoying :evil:

mrgrimsdale
Incredibly Regular Poster
Posts: 6901
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:02 pm

Re: Insulation Values ?

Postby mrgrimsdale » Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:32 pm

Sealing is big priority. Tape over joints, joints staggered where poss, foam or mastic in gaps. Much like caulking a boat - only takes a little hole to sink it. :o


Return to “Non-woodworking related DIY”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest