Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

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Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby rhrwilliams » Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:57 am

Hello Friends

Ok so a long winded thread which will appeal to a select few, but any construction details / pictures / thoughts would be appreciated.

I have a potential window replacement project on a farmhouse in East Sussex. The building was built between 1720 and 1750. Although the building looks sad at the moment. I am sure there is a lovely Georgian house hiding there somewhere. Currently I am undertaking general historical research and looking for any useful contributions. Particularly if anyone has photos from similar period buildings (early Georgian Farmhouses) with sash windows and shutters. I am very well aquatinted with town houses in London and this sort of building, but less so with cottages and country farmhouses... Vernacular stuff.

The House
Image

I have concluded the windows must have been sash windows to the front and iron casements to the rear. I have concluded this as there is evidence of iron casements to the rear. My theory on the sash on the front is because the openings are too long for casements as the proportions would be incorrect. The proportions are correct however for sliding sashes. There are other windows in the area that I could find of a similar period for moulding detail etc.

The masonry have no brickwork reveals / sash pockets, in addition to this the construction age (pre 1750) would indicate the windows were of the type that were planted in a square opening. Examples below of buildings of 1720 (4 over 4) and 1740 (6 over 6) ; The 6 over 6 being a modest house, the 4 over 4 being a very prominent building in London.

Image
Image

Firstly then; how are these type of windows not in pockets fixed in ? I have seen in a old txt they were just wedged in with folding wedges but how is this practically done, as would you not see the wedges from outside as there is not tolerance as the windows need to be basically scribed in ? In the examples of the 1740 window above, these were not wedged in but sat on iron lugs in the masonry. I cant imagine iron lugs was a common practice.

Next cills...The two examples above do not have cills at all in the sense they do not project over the masonry. This is very common of this era in lower quality buildings and I have surveyed lots and lots of buildings with no cills and the windows are still perfectly serviceable. BUT is a groove or drip put in the cill even though it does not project.

Does anyone have any early txt's drawings particularly relating to these early type of sash ?

Shutters. There is no evidence of internal shutters.......but I like shutters. I do not doubt that shutters would be rare in country cottages / lower quality houses, but does anyone have any examples ? I have lots of examples of 9" walls in London with this type of early windows and the shutters are usually made up of about 4 leaves a side and are very delicate, and formed together with a panelled room. A couple more examples, these are mainly townhouses of varying quality.

This house is actually in Margate and is a fantastic 1st rate Georgian house - the shutters are about 15mm thick !
Image

Super slimline shutters
Image

Painted over shutters (Same house as the 1720 Townhouses pictured earlier)
Image

Anyone re-made traditional shutters/ sashes of this era ? Anyone have any nice info / txt's drawings examples to point me towards ?

Thanks

Richard

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby JonR » Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:50 pm

I usually go to this book that i have as i am sure others here have also for old school reference

https://www.google.co.uk/#q=george+elli ... oinery+pdf

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby rhrwilliams » Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:53 pm

Thanks jon, I have this book but this only really covers latter type windows recessed in brickwork pockets. I was keen to see if anyone had made a good go of making a set or knew of any cottages / farmhouses with shutters.

Hope your ok and things going well.

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby Leveller2911 » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:50 pm

I'm down here in Rye (East Sussex) and 50% of my work is on Grade II Listed properties and we have lots and lots of sash windows around here.The sash windows around here that are not fitted behind the outside skin of brickwork tend to be kept in place by wedges but also nailed through the inside linings into wooden wedges hammered into the inside skin of brickwork and also the head pulley stile horns are left on and bricked around but cut back a bricks width so they don't show from the outside . Just leaves the bottom to fix with either nails through the wedges in the brickwork or they also leave the cill horns long and bricked around them but again cut back a bricks width so they don't show from the outside..

Lots of houses around here have internal shutters some folding as in the pix above but also some that are on sash cords and are kept below the window board. The window board is hinged and opens to allow the shutters to be pulled upwards..

I recently made some curved/bowed boxframes for a house locally and they had shutters on the inside.The windows were curved but the shutters were flat so opened from each side. I would post some pix but I still can't grasp posting pix.. Amazing eh, I can make curved windows but can't post pix... :lol:
The house in Margate, have they insisted you use Douglas Fir to make the new windows?.. The Conservation officers around there love Douglas Fir for some reason.

If you're ever in my area feel free to pop in for a chat and a walk around Rye & Winchelsea ,look at the windows ,the history and a pint of Sussex ale.

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby rhrwilliams » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:01 pm

Thank you for the information - very helpful - where do you nail through the lining without interfering with sash weights ? Thanks again Richard

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby Leveller2911 » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:08 pm

rhrwilliams wrote:Thank you for the information - very helpful - where do you nail through the lining without interfering with sash weights ? Thanks again Richard



Just replied to your message via the report button for some reason...lol

Nail near the perimeter of the inside linings so you miss the weights. I tend to use screws that way if it does catch the weight I can drill a slightly steeper angle . Most lintels will be timber so fixing the head is easy . I have know cases where the void in the head of the existing boxframe contains the lintel holding all the brickwork above which makes fitting a new window interesting.. Recently a mate of mine replaced some sash windows in Rye that still have wooden sahs pulleys which dated around 1750's . They were oak with boxwood pulley wheels.The wooden wedges that are hammered into the inside skin of brickwork were shaped with an adze/axe and you trim them like a propeller shape so when you knock them in they twist and tighten up and never come out. Thats how great grandad did it and I'm sure theres a name for them but I can't think what it was.

Also worth noting that down here there are a lot of houses have "mathmatical " tiling which looks like brickwork but is in fact tiles on timber framed buildings. Once the wattle and daub panels went out of fashion people wanted that brickwork look so went over to mathmatical tiles.

The house you posted does lend itself to having sash windows when you look at the window dimensions.

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby rhrwilliams » Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:54 pm

Did you report me for having an unhealthy interest in sash windows...lol.

How do you mean propeller shaped - like spiralled to the wedge turns when you hammer it into the perp of the brickwork ?

Mathematical tiles apparently were a response to the brick tax in 1750 ish - not sure how true this is as most of the mathematical tile houses I have seen are Tenterden way and are older timber frames that have been renovated by Georgians. Not to say thats the case everywhere.

Thanks for your input , always very nice to hear from someone who has been there and done it.

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby Leveller2911 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:49 pm

rhrwilliams wrote:Did you report me for having an unhealthy interest in sash windows...lol.


To my shame I love the things and enjoy making them. Curved/Bowed ones make your head hurt but look the dogs danglies when they are all fitted and painted.

How do you mean propeller shaped - like spiralled to the wedge turns when you hammer it into the perp of the brickwork ?


Yes and being that spiral shape they lock in when you hammer them home.

Mathematical tiles apparently were a response to the brick tax in 1750 ish - not sure how true this is as most of the mathematical tile houses I have seen are Tenterden way and are older timber frames that have been renovated by Georgians. Not to say thats the case everywhere.

You could well be rght about the Brick tax and as you say there are a few around Tenterden and Rye around Church Square/ Watchbell Street etc. As you say old timber framed houses with jettied fronts were renovated by the Georgians, flushed up the frontage to get rid of the Jettied first floors and mathmatiacal tile the front elevation..

Thanks for your input , always very nice to hear from someone who has been there and done it.


I'm still learning about them and up until a year or so ago had never seen a timber sash pulley. :D

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby rhrwilliams » Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:37 pm

If you get any jobs where you are making or repairing any interest sashes - take some pics please :)

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby promhandicam » Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:27 pm

Not sure if Jason (JFC) has seen this, but it might be worth sending him a PM and asking if he has anything to add.

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby rhrwilliams » Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:50 pm

Thanks I have sent him a PM. Cheers

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby jfc » Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:11 am

The only time i have ever seen sashes fitted with the full lining showing is on here . I'm not saying it isnt done but i think it may be an after thought when building the house or maybe a later addition to the house . If the house was meant to have sashes then it would have been built with a rebate in the brickwork .
The last place i worked on around that area had casements with georgian glazing bars ( thousands of glazing bars ! :evil: ) and i'm just waiting for another to go through planning but again that is all casements ( with glazing bars , thousands and thousands of glazing bars :evil: )
I'm not a fan of glazing bars !
If you are dead set on putting sashes into the property then personally i would lose the box part of the sash and use spirels or assisted lifts . This will give you the advantage of being able to drop the frame size down to about 45mm maybe less . It will look better when looking at the property from the outside . No point having wonderfully working traditional sash windows if they look sh*t from the outside .

This is the cottage i worked on close to your area . If you look at the side of the property you can see we have left an original window in place , next to the down pipe . All the other windows where a direct replacement to what was there but double glazed .

Image

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby senior » Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:46 pm

promhandicam wrote:Not sure if Jason (JFC) has seen this, but it might be worth sending him a PM and asking if he has anything to add.



Don't give him your address, he will send naked photos of himself ...................
Have a look at my facebook page and leave a comment or two.
Or browse my website Hand made kitchens Essex

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby rhrwilliams » Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:07 pm

lol - I hope not !

Looks like a nice cottage - the openings are more square in this instance which lend themselves better to casements.

To be honest I am not a fan of spiral balances. I have only ever seen windows with spiral balances where they are broken. I am sure this is not always the case though.

What is the minimum depth you can get a sash box with weights ? 80mm ?

The other option of course is to just cut a pocket in. That is pretty big work though as you will probably also have to replace the internal lintel as you will be effectively cutting its bearing away. It also assumes there are all stretchers , where there are more likely some headers , and you would probably end up rebuilding the whole bloody area. The more I discuss this option, the more think this may be a step too far !

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby jfc » Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:30 pm

rhrwilliams wrote:
To be honest I am not a fan of spiral balances. I have only ever seen windows with spiral balances where they are broken. I am sure this is not always the case though.



You could say the same for sash cords but you can replace a spiral without taking the window apart .
I think it will look alot nicer than having a massive section showing from the outside . To me it looks like they have messed up the window size .
Agree the windows i have shown are not as tall but i think you could put a mid rail in with two top hung casements above . That's my guess as to what should be in there .

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby Leveller2911 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:32 pm

jfc wrote:The only time i have ever seen sashes fitted with the full lining showing is on here . I'm not saying it isnt done but i think it may be an after thought when building the house or maybe a later addition to the house . If the house was meant to have sashes then it would have been built with a rebate in the brickwork .



I read a book a few years ago and in it they said that before the Great fire of London all box sash windows were fitted from the outside and just recessed back from the face of the brickwork,Oak frame and it was due to the fire they changed the rules/regs of the day.

I guess they would fit a moulding to the outsides similat to an architrave (sides and head). Wasn't it also something to do with the "Window tax" where people were taxed if they were flush to the outside so they then fitted them behind the oiutside skin of Brickwork/studwork and then many of them were taken out and the window reveals bricked up because of an increase in the tax?... Apperently pre Great fire most sash windows didn't have cills pertruding , they would have been flush with the outside linings.. Not sure if it was something to do with fire spreading from floor to floor.

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby jfc » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:39 pm

Never heard it being the window tax for the reason they where set back but it could be a reason . also the great fire didnt destroy the whole of london and there are properties of the same age in places all over the country , are those windows flush with the outside ?
Ive had a google about and can see very few properties with the windows like this although it is done .

Image

The top windows look like tilt and turn and set back but the one above the door is a sash with a moulding around it like you said .

Edit . Other examples

Image

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby rhrwilliams » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:48 pm

The sash being in a pocket was as result of the great fire of London, where it made it compulsory (in London only - did not apply elsewhere) to firstly recess the sash by 4", then to build it in pockets. Design development probably had a lot to do with it too. Although it was part of the building act that after 1709 the sashes should be recessed 4 inch, in reality this did not happen on all buildings (The 1720 building for example and all the houses in Westminster around Lord North St, and many of the houses in Spittalfields). Some houses pre 1740 also did have pockets.....but not all.

This is just a picture from a England Heritage book on development of sashes.

Image

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby rhrwilliams » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:49 pm

If you love glazing bars, I bet you would love making all those windows from the Georgian Tea Rooms !

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby jfc » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:11 pm

rhrwilliams wrote:The sash being in a pocket was as result of the great fire of London, where it made it compulsory (in London only - did not apply elsewhere) to firstly recess the sash by 4", then to build it in pockets. Design development probably had a lot to do with it too. Although it was part of the building act that after 1709 the sashes should be recessed 4 inch, in reality this did not happen on all buildings (The 1720 building for example and all the houses in Westminster around Lord North St, and many of the houses in Spittalfields). Some houses pre 1740 also did have pockets.....but not all.

This is just a picture from a England Heritage book on development of sashes.

Image

Well there you go , building control making houses not look sh*t . Thats a one off :lol:

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby Leveller2911 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:13 pm

jfc wrote:
Image

The top windows look like tilt and turn and set back but the one above the door is a sash with a moulding around it like you said .



Oh I would love to make one of those Double bowed box frames............There are few of those around Hastings Old Town..Nice Georgian Door frames too with the latice glazing bars....To think originally all that was done with hand tools and no machinery is cool.

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby jfc » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:09 pm

I like the detail above the door , i have a picture of a window like that in the workshop but its more like a cob web bowed out . One day i will make it ( i keep telling myself )
Regarding the windows , it looks like they used a very large quadrant to break up the lines on the outside of the box .

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby JonR » Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:49 pm

I am watching "Taboo" the series with Tom Hardy at the moment and the Delaney family home in it is a nice example of the before 1709 window positioning which i think i prefer.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.52004 ... 312!8i6656

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby jfc » Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:17 am


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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby rhrwilliams » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:14 am

I really like the Taboo series - its vey good. The House in Stepney Green (37 Stepney Green, now owned by spittalfields trust) was actually owned and built by a salve ship owner and latter a director of the Right Honourable East India Company , so very relevant to Taboo.

Lol - that guy liked paying tax about as much as I do.

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby rhrwilliams » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:19 am

This is another similar type window ..... How on earth did they make a curved architrave ? Did they use a scratch plane do you think or would have they made a plane of that curvature ? You wouldn't be able to do it on a spindle would you unless it was a tilting one if it has hollows ?

Image

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby jfc » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:43 am

Curved architrave , make a template of the curve and pin it to the wood . Ring fence on the spindle moulder , close your eyes and pray !
If i'm not matching up to anything then i tend to use bearing guided router cutters to make my mouldings .

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby rhrwilliams » Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:37 am

My first block on my sedgwick SM4 was the old type that held the cutter in by friction. I was and still am scared of it and still duck when I switch it on...even now I use euro cutters with pins. I think the bearing guided router cutters sounds the best option. :)

I also when I first got it was making sash bars and the machine literally ate a 1 m length of 1" x 2" timber and spat it out again. After that I treat it with extreme caution and I have made loads of jigs and fences and stuff for small work like glazing bars so I don't need to be anywhere near it !

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby rhrwilliams » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:42 pm

Hi everyone

I and my partner have decided sash windows would look very nice, so I am going to make some sashes. As such I decided (as I have never made a box before ) I would make a test one up to see what it looks like and hopefully get the c*ck ups out the way now. I used scrap wood from a skip..... will make the real ones from redwood. You will see from pics in the background I also have a forge so I am going to have a go at making the ironmongery too.

From making them up , I have some questions from the experts if anyone can help me please.

1) At the meeting rail I did a dovetail type joint (taken from Cassells joinery book). I made a bit of a hash of this , is there an easier joint that can be used ?

2) I scribed everything on the spindle moulder and hoped it all fitted together later - it did mostly but was not micro mm perfect. Do most people do this on spindle or scribe by hand ? The profile I used was a complicated one and I think an Ovolo or something may be easier to scribe by hand. I can see that doing it by hand has some advantages.

3) What tolerance do you allow between sash / box frame for sliding and between sash / staff beads ? I left 1.5mm but this feels tight still.

4) I had real trouble squaring the box frame up - does it hold together square when you glue linings on, or do you rely on wedging it square in the opening ? Also do you make up the box frame on the bench or glue and pin the linings on when its in the opening ?

5) What stock thickness is generally used ? I used 22mm for box frame, 15mm for external linings and 18mm internal linings. I was thinking 15mm may be too thin for external linings.

6) If I want to draft proof sashes, so I need to alter construction at all at this stage ?

If anyone has the time to help me I would be very grateful and appreciate not all questions may be able to be answered.

Richard

Box and Sash
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c*ck up of meeting rail
Image

In place
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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby riclepp » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:32 pm

Hi Richard

New house,?.. moved from the old church??

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby rhrwilliams » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:07 pm

Yes I finished the church and move out to a new place . New project....... I think I'm mad.

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby jfc » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:46 pm

If you want a stronger joint at the meeting rail then add joggles to the sashes . That way you can use a wedged mortice and tennon .
Draft proofing can be done with Mightons parting bead and brush , i think seals direct also sell gaskets etc but ive never used them .You will need to allow a bit in the frame size for them .
Scribing , i used to scribe by hand before i got a tenoner , now its scribe first and then run the mouldings .
The mock up looks good .

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby riclepp » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:01 pm

rhrwilliams wrote:Yes I finished the church and move out to a new place . New project....... I think I'm mad.


Ah thats a shame as the church was lovely...would liked to have seen the finished results.

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby rhrwilliams » Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:31 pm

Thanks for reply JFC. Im going to order some MIghtons draft stuff and have a look

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby thatsnotafestool » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:44 pm

Great thread, guys. Watching with interest.
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
Friedrich Nietzsche

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby rhrwilliams » Sun May 07, 2017 8:27 pm

I made the boxes over the last couple of days ....
I've posted a thread on ukworkshop of how I did it if anyone interested. I've not posted that here though as I think most folk on this site know how to make a sash box with their eyes closed :)

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby JonR » Mon May 08, 2017 5:12 pm

Looking good mate, give me a bell if you want to get them pressure treated if they are under 1.2m wide they will fit in the chamber, meant to say about that when we last spoke.

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby rhrwilliams » Mon May 08, 2017 7:23 pm

Cheers Jon. Ive never heard of that. What is pressure treating ? Is it the same as tanalising ?

They are over 1.2m wide .

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby JonR » Tue May 09, 2017 8:20 pm

Not Tanalised, i think that is high pressure treatment the other is low pressure PV2 VAC-VAC that's what i have done.

http://www.ptgtreatments.co.uk/

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Re: Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

Postby rhrwilliams » Tue May 23, 2017 8:45 pm

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