Tulipwood or unsorted

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Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby thatsnotafestool » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:39 pm

Does anyone have a preference for one or the other ? Application are internal doors (painted), architraves, skirting.

TIA
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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby bdshim » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:47 pm

Have always found tulip can move alot but you get the knots with pine I find pine ok obviously never use the heart

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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby davidpidge » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:46 am

Isn't tulip a bit soft for doors? I use it for cabinets but they shouldn't get as much abuse in theory.

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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby thatsnotafestool » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:50 am

Thanks for the comments, guys. Interesting that the company that I contacted for some compare'n'contrast pricing said that they used tulipwood because it was stable !

Any ideas on relative pricing between the two...it's been a long, long time since I did any woodworking in anger.
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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby Leveller2911 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:33 pm

I've never found Tulipwood to move much. In fact Its one of the most stable timbers you can get around heat sources such as AGA's ,Radiators etc.

It is soft and doesn't like being knocked too much but a good paint finish can help protect it.

I never use softwood pine for internal doors because its so unstable and rarely stays straight and it shrinks badly. I'm doing some internal doors and linings at the moment and using tulipwood.Currently paying around £630-00 cubic metre for 38mm and £665-00 for 50mm from Brooks Bros.

Wouldn't have a clue about unsorted Joinery redwood prices .

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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby Jonathan » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:49 pm

I use tulip all the time for mouldings, never had a complaint of movment, last year my suppliers ran out of tulip so I used pine. Fitters told me it was a nightmare to use and not to use it again.
Don't do many internal doors but the few I have done have had no problems.
Small doors I always use tulip and MDF

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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby Tomyjoiner » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:31 pm

I've just made 2 6 panel doors out of unsorted and a sliding barn style door out of tulip (see post) i use tulip a lot for kitchens an doors and wouldn't really say it moves a lot not compared to red anyway. also finishes better an takes paint better swell imo.

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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby Meccarroll » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:29 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:Does anyone have a preference for one or the other ? Application are internal doors (painted), architraves, skirting.

TIA


Architraves and skirting are usually made from MDF today, stable cheap and takes paint well. You just need to use nice sharp cutters, sand back and seal cut edges. Don't use off the shelf builders stuff, use a premium brand as it will machine better.

The choice for doors it's more open I'd think.

I have several cheap (B&Q) pine doors in my house and a couple of home made ones. One twisted (B&Q) but the rest have stayed put. When you consider that virtually all interior doors were made from pine years ago it would be difficult to argue that it's not a suitable timber. If you select it with care machine properly and condition it pine can be fine.

Tulip is used a lot in kitchen door manufacturing so again it has a proven track record for certain uses. Not used Tulip myself but In the main, it seems to have a reputation for being stable.

I think the quality of any wood will mainly rely on obtaining good stock from a reputable supplier.

To some extent, good quality timber, is down to how deep your pockets are.

Mark


Might you consider saving the time and money and 'buy in' unless there is a real need for a specific design/size.

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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby thatsnotafestool » Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:23 am

Many thanks guys for all the input.

Mark, your comment in italics ? Assuming it's a question and not a signature , it's for all the internal doors in our renovation - six-panelled Georgian style. Been quoted £850 or so for each...we need eleven...it's a no-brainer...make them !

Plus architraves, skirting...SWMBO rather likes this skirting board

skirting board.png
skirting board.png (13.58 KiB) Viewed 1355 times
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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby rhrwilliams » Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:56 am

If it were my own house I would not use MDF or tulip wood for something like a door as I think they are both too soft. I like stuff to be put in a house that you know can take a kicking from kids / me / whatever and will last.

As said previous pretty much every internal and external door on domestic houses have been made from pine from about 1750 - fairly recently. Durable material that takes a beating. Cheaper than tulip wood also and I have never had any problems with stuff twisting or warping.

Also the panels I cant see working very well in tulip wood unless you use mdf which again I don't think is great for an internal door as over time it will just get knackered as it relies on the paint.

That said..I have made probably about 1/100th of the doors the guys on here have !

You will get very close to that skirting making it in 2 bits. Top bit with 007 euro cutter and bottom bit is just square. If its 9" skirting 2 bits is better as its difficult to fix and does move about abit more.
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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby rhrwilliams » Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:58 am

edit - "very close" should read "close-ish" if you squint when you look at the skirting.

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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby Meccarroll » Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:48 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:Many thanks guys for all the input.

Been quoted £850 or so for each...we need eleven...it's a no-brainer...make them !

Plus architraves, skirting...SWMBO rather likes this skirting board


Skirting:
I'd look at making the skirting out of MDF and three pieces (just step the bottom out and glue a strip on the back to fill the gap). Maybe do the moulded section in timber.

Doors
What timber was the door maker going to use? Might be influential.

I've not been keeping up with the forum lately (summer water sports) but I'd think without a Spindle moulder and tenoner (with scribe) it going to take you a very long time to make all 11 doors on your own. Good luck and don't forget to post the making of them. Having said that it would pay you to buy the equipment them sell it on after making them.

Mark

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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby thatsnotafestool » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:27 pm

They were going to use tulipwood...which is what made me start thinking about it. But if unsorted is cheaper then I'll go that route.

I try and avoid using MDF ! :)
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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby thatsnotafestool » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:29 pm

Meccarroll wrote:......
I've not been keeping up with the forum lately (summer water sports) but I'd think without a Spindle moulder and tenoner (with scribe) it going to take you a very long time to make all 11 doors on your own. Good luck and don't forget to post the making of them. Having said that it would pay you to buy the equipment them sell it on after making them.

Mark


Forgot to add that I've got a Hammer C3-31 coming. :D

What summer water sports do you do ? Beach volleyball spectator ? ;) :lol:
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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby Leveller2911 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:28 pm

Meccarroll wrote:
thatsnotafestool wrote:

When you consider that virtually all interior doors were made from pine years ago it would be difficult to argue that it's not a suitable timber. If you select it with care machine properly and condition it pine can be fine.


Years ago very, very few houses had central heating and were draughty so no double glazing to make the houses air tight. In the old days the softwood was also air dried and the better grades were used for Joinery but now we only get Grades 5ths and Unsorted in the UK so we don't get the better grades. In todays world softwoods are fast growing ,harvested early and kiln dried and they still send boards out with the pith in which is a big no no for stability.

I don't think you can compare the last 300yrs with today when you consider the advancements in central heating and double glazing.

The main reason most mass producers "engineer" their pine doors is to make them stable.

If I had to make a door out of redwood I would prime it before delivery to help seal it otherwise it would move all over the place in a centrally heated house. I never give a warranty on anything made of Redwood pine.

The advantage of Tulipwood is you don't get pockets of sap, very few knots if any and is more stable. I have noticed in the past few years when ripping it down quite often pinches the riving knife on the rip saw, years ago we never got any of that.When you ripped Tulip down it would stay very straight.

The only benefit I see from using pine apart from cost (which is not that much) is I go home smelling nicer than I did when I went to work in the morning.. According to Mrs Leveller

Just my penneth worth............. :)

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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby JonR » Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:25 pm

Have posted this before but have a look at woodex engineered pine, if i jad to go with pine i would laminate it my self, there is also Red Grandis that i have just discovered also engineered fingered jointed and face laminated.

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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby thatsnotafestool » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:00 pm

JonR wrote:Have posted this before but have a look at woodex engineered pine, if i jad to go with pine i would laminate it my self, there is also Red Grandis that i have just discovered also engineered fingered jointed and face laminated.


Good post, Jon...not heard of that. Pricewise how does it compare ?
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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby Meccarroll » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:05 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Forgot to add that I've got a Hammer C3-31 coming. :D

What summer water sports do you do ? Beach volleyball spectator ? ;) :lol:


1. The Hammer C3-31 should help a bit but still going to take some serious time without a good scribing machine.

2. Mainly skiing, Wake-boarding, Kneeboarding but other none motorised water sports too. Currently looking for a larger Ski boat with bow area, Canadian make. Back to woodwork to fill the winter months though :D

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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby thatsnotafestool » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:15 pm

Windsurfing for me. Providing the location is somewhere warm! I've done the December 27th windsurf with steamer and hood....long time ago.
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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby Jonathan » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:05 am

+1 for engineered timber.
On doors I would want them painted, you would see the lamination on any non moulded edge,
With windows is almost impossible to see the lamination.
It's also a pleasure to go to a stack of engineered timber 6m lengths and every single piece is perfectly straight and no twist.

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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby Meccarroll » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:13 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:Windsurfing for me. Providing the location is somewhere warm! I've done the December 27th windsurf with steamer and hood....long time ago.


Yes, windsurfing is fine once you get the hang of staying upright/on the board.

Was thinking about this today and maybe a Festool Domino 700 would speed thing up a bit, you could always sell it after for not much less than you pay. Just a thought :roll:

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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby thatsnotafestool » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:16 pm

Funny you should say that about the Domino 700 as I'd also thought about that.
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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby Meccarroll » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:51 pm

Leveller2911 wrote:
Meccarroll wrote:
thatsnotafestool wrote:



Years ago very, very few houses had central heating and were draughty so no double glazing to make the houses air tight. In the old days the softwood was also air dried and the better grades were used for Joinery but now we only get Grades 5ths and Unsorted in the UK so we don't get the better grades. In todays world softwoods are fast growing ,harvested early and kiln dried and they still send boards out with the pith in which is a big no no for stability.

I don't think you can compare the last 300yrs with today when you consider the advancements in central heating and double glazing.

The main reason most mass producers "engineer" their pine doors is to make them stable.

If I had to make a door out of redwood I would prime it before delivery to help seal it otherwise it would move all over the place in a centrally heated house. I never give a warranty on anything made of Redwood pine.

The advantage of Tulipwood is you don't get pockets of sap, very few knots if any and is more stable. I have noticed in the past few years when ripping it down quite often pinches the riving knife on the rip saw, years ago we never got any of that.When you ripped Tulip down it would stay very straight.

The only benefit I see from using pine apart from cost (which is not that much) is I go home smelling nicer than I did when I went to work in the morning.. According to Mrs Leveller

Just my penneth worth............. :)


I'm not convinced that central heating and double glazing actually lessens the stability of doors made from pine to the extent that pine becomes an unsuitable timber to use in their manufacture. I have solid pine doors and my house is heated by storage heaters (70 deg in winter), the doors being purchased from B&Q and only one of them twisted. I know the fact that even one twisted is not really good enough but they were made from real cheap pine and bargain basement doors too, so it's understandable to some extent. I'm not trying to justify pine over Tulip wood as those that use Tulip wood do seem to commend it for it's stability but there are plenty of old pine doors in old houses that have been converted to central heating and still kept their shape. I would have no problem using Tulip wood if I could obtain it around where I live at a reasonable price but I've only ever used pine Leveller and yet to be converted LOL

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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby thatsnotafestool » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:41 pm

Jonathan wrote:+1 for engineered timber.
On doors I would want them painted, you would see the lamination on any non moulded edge,
....


Would you see the difference in texture between the laminations on the edge of the door if it was painted ?
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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby jake » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:41 pm

My guess would be yes after a few seasons of shrinkage and expansion. But it's a guess from having glued a few bits onto reclaimed doors to make them openings Nothing a sand and repaint doesn't then sort out for a good few more years. Maybe its better with a presumably much more industrial glue process though.

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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby Jonathan » Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:12 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Jonathan wrote:+1 for engineered timber.
On doors I would want them painted, you would see the lamination on any non moulded edge,
....


Would you see the difference in texture between the laminations on the edge of the door if it was painted ?


Probably a personal thing, when you see the edge of an unpainted door jamb and its 3 pieces of timber laminated together, it looks naff, in my opinion, it would look better in one solid piece. so I would want it veneered if it was not painted.

One of the reasons today's pine is not as stable as it was 1000 years ago is, today it is cut when it suits the loggin company, back in the old days it was cut when it was the correct moon cycle, Also it was left in a lake or in water for a long time to get the sap out before it was naturally air dried.
Also, the planet is warmer, best softwoods are slow grown in cold climates ...... with MDF none of this matters :D

+1 for the domino700, but i think I would have to keep it. :mrgreen:

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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby Meccarroll » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:00 pm

There does not seen to be a lot of love on this thread for pine doors. The alternatives suggested so far seem to be Tulip wood or engineered wood.

Doors made out of engineered timber are usually veneered. One way engineered timber is used in door construction is to buy door blanks then cut the blank down to the required size following the manufacturers instructions. This method is often used for fire doors but I don't see how this would work in your situation Roger.

If pine is a no no then Tulipwood would at least lend itself to the style of construction you want to make Roger. Why not obtain some prices from Brooks to see how much the material for the doors would cost. I'd still be considering MDF for the panels (just for ease of construction), maybe a flat panel with a glued on raised centre all fit into a groove in the door.

If the original quote was £850 per door and you have 11 to make you could even consider purchasing a second hand tenoner for the job then selling it when done. You could probably pick up a good used multico tenoner for around £1500 then sell it for the same after. Just another thought :) You would have to check out your power supply though as these usually run two motors at a time (top and bottom).

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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby thatsnotafestool » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:33 pm

Meccarroll wrote:...... you could even consider purchasing a second hand tenoner for the job then selling it when done. You could probably pick up a good used multico tenoner for around £1500 then sell it for the same after. Just another thought :) You would have to check out your power supply though as these usually run two motors at a time (top and bottom).



Not a chance! The power supply is challenged. I'm only able to run the combination machine as three-phase from an inverter to give a gentler start.
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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby Meccarroll » Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:23 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Meccarroll wrote:...... you could even consider purchasing a second hand tenoner for the job then selling it when done. You could probably pick up a good used multico tenoner for around £1500 then sell it for the same after. Just another thought :) You would have to check out your power supply though as these usually run two motors at a time (top and bottom).



Not a chance! The power supply is challenged. I'm only able to run the combination machine as three-phase from an inverter to give a gentler start.


What is the possibility of running one off a generator? or even two generators? One wired to each motor. It might not be as far fetched as it seems provided the generator(s) will handle the initial draw. I might even try it in the morning with my multico tenoner and 3.4 Kw generator. Each motor is rated at 1.5Kw on the multico single phase tenoner so it may work.

Failing that are we back to a Festool 700 or have you thought of anything else?

Mark

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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby thatsnotafestool » Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:27 am

It's the Festool for me.
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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby Meccarroll » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:37 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:It's the Festool for me.


Tried the running one of the Multico Tenoner(s) motors, this morning, with my 3.4Kw Generator and could not get the tenoner motor to power up enough to spin fully. Maybe two 5Kw Generators or one large Generator but it's getting expensive that way.

I have a couple of slot cutters that I can and do use on my spindle moulder for finger jointing sash window tenons but they take three horse power to spin them (1 Phase), 2hp is a little underpowered (just thinking about ways to cut the tenons).

:idea: Do you have a slot mortice attachment on your combination machine? Might be worth playing around with a slot mortice, it leaves a very similar mortice to the Festool. Rounded ends with a clean cut mortice. I used one years ago and it was very quick and left a very clean finish.

Does seem like a Festool Domino might be the easiest solutin for this job. Think I'll be jealous LoL

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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby Jonathan » Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:27 pm

Cheepo option, 16 or 18 mm dowels, in Europe it's use extensively instead of mortice and tennon.
Few years back I made my own jig, worked ok, but !,not as easy as a domino or a horizontal drilling set up.

Another option, router, and a floating tennon set up.

Have you thought of sipo as a timber for your doors? Super stable, nice to work with, harder than tulip.
If I remember correctly it's on par with tulip cost wise.

Jonathan

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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby thatsnotafestool » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:26 pm

I had to Google SIPO ! Utile to us lesser mortals :lol: Good idea though as I'd forgotten it although the complications due to the interlocked grain leave me wondering. Leaning towards the engineered stuff and.....MDF panels :o
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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby Meccarroll » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:40 am

I can't see how this would work with engineered timber but it will be interesting to see how you go about it Roger.

One of the carpenters was cutting down an engineered door to fit an opening on the site I am currently on and believe it or not the blank had a bow in it. Not much about an eight of an inch it it's length but it was still there.

Would be interesting to see the prices for different materials if you don't mind posting them up when you obtain some.

Mark

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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby mikefab » Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:22 am

Hi Roger,

I think I've seen from posts here and UKworkshop that you have moved to Northumberland? If that's right then maybe I can help? I'm in Hexham and have a multico tenoner which you would be welcome to come and use. Morticer and spindle too if you need to get on with it before your Hammer machine comes.

I'm also doing a house renovation - it's always good to meet people doing similar things.

Cheers,
Mike

PS first post here but have lurked for a while!

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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby thatsnotafestool » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:18 am

Hi Mike

That's good to know and many thanks for the kind offer. I'm not a million miles away just West of Haltwhistle. Can you PM me your details please ?

If you're interested in my house traumas/renovation then the thread is here although I've not updated it for a while.
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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby mikefab » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:07 am

Not so far away then.

Can't do PM just yet it seems I need a few more posts.

Email me on [insertmyfirstnamehere]@fabricius.co.uk

Cheers,
Mike

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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby thatsnotafestool » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:22 pm

mikefab wrote:Not so far away then.

Can't do PM just yet it seems I need a few more posts.

Email me on [insertmyfirstnamehere]@fabricius.co.uk

Cheers,
Mike


Hi Mike....got your other email thx...been a bit hectic today. Will give you a bell tomorrow.
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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby mikefab » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:32 pm

Ok no probs.

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Re: Tulipwood or unsorted

Postby podengo » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:16 pm

Tulipwood is pretty good for interior joinery, Ive never had issues.

I find there isnt much difference between tulipwood and unsorted redwood by the time you factor in the filling, sanding, knotting etc costs.

Alteranitvely try red grandis from Timbmet.


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