Staircase upgrade ..

General wood working tips, tricks and ideas. Anything that doesn't belong elsewhere can be discussed here.
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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:01 am

Meccarroll wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:49 am
thatsnotafestool wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:02 pm
That's the camera angle, Mark. I had the laser line on the 'extension' and it's all square.

The line on your paper next to the letter "B" is the tangent line.

The end of the wreath must be squared off to that line (Tangent Line) and your picture shows this to be true.

You have added a wedge of polystyrene to extend the face mould so the joint between the face mould and handrail will fit.

The butt joint on the polystyrene is not square to the tangent line. It may now be square to the handrail but it is defiantly not square with the tangent line.

If the pitch lines in your drawing are not at the correct angle, the joint will not fit.

The pitch lines tilt the wreath so the butt joint lay square on to the handrail.

If the pitch lines are not correct they will tilt the wreath out of square with the handrail.

You may not have the correct pitch lines on your drawing.

You have managed to create a very interesting thread here Rodger. I am totally hooked!
Thanks Mark....will have another look at this later.
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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:18 am

I can't disagree with anything that you've said, Mark.

FYI..the lines on the underside are historical. The actual tangent line is marked on the top surface. But even this one shows that, were it correct then cutting the face at a right-angle to it would not butt up with the upper handrail. I take your point regarding the pitch lines and I've checked the drawing. The correct pitch line was drawn.

So what does that tell us ? The pitch line is fixed. The cut of the wreath face has to butt up against the square end of the upper handrail. So that must mean that the tangent is wrong. Which makes the drawing wrong.

But it doesn't matter now..it's got me far enough to finesse the rest. I'll be doing a trial fit later on in situ.
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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by Oldboy22 » Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:46 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:00 am
Oldboy22 wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:56 am
Meccarroll wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:31 am


Most people spend years learning this stuff and Rodger has come an awful long way (with your help) in a very short space of time, I hope he does not throw in the towel right now.
Your right he has come a long way and I have acknowledged that at times, and it is very difficult stuff. But he’s not learning he keeps going of on a tangent (did you see what I did there), thinking he knows best and not listening to me. I know none of you know me and I’ve only been here a short while. But I know my stuff at least at this level and I really would like to pass as much of that on to anyone who is interested, before the big sleep. I’ve been on forums before where people are very clicky, gang up or ignore someone, and eventually the forum dies, because everyone is frightened to say anything. I hope it’s not like that here. But there doesn’t seem to be much interest for this subject anywhere and it will lost forever.
Question for you. How many of these continuous handrail with wreaths have you made and installed ?
I’ve already said on my post I’ve only done one tangent handrail job for a paying customer, but hundred of drawings and hundreds of hours learning, plus a few practice pieces.

When I did that job I had no help and only one book about tangent handrail, about 6 pages in all.

But I had to learn hard and fast before I made a complete fool of myself in front of my work colleagues and client.

There was no this is carpentry post or video, and hardly anything online to help me.

I would have given a small fortune to have someone prepared to walk me through it, like you did.

You’ve never trusted a word I’ve said, I wished you had said so at the beginning I could have saved me a LOT of frustration .

By the way the staircase and handrail I made on my first page is of unequal pitch. But I bet you didn’t even notice that.

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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:00 am

I have no idea why you are being so defensive or what your issues are. At no time have I given any indication of not trusting what you were saying. I have been very willing to learn but so many times when I ask you a question, you reply with an answer to something completely different.
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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by Meccarroll » Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:00 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:18 am
I can't disagree with anything that you've said, Mark.

FYI..the lines on the underside are historical. The actual tangent line is marked on the top surface. But even this one shows that, were it correct then cutting the face at a right-angle to it would not butt up with the upper handrail. I take your point regarding the pitch lines and I've checked the drawing. The correct pitch line was drawn.

So what does that tell us ? The pitch line is fixed. The cut of the wreath face has to butt up against the square end of the upper handrail. So that must mean that the tangent is wrong. Which makes the drawing wrong.

But it doesn't matter now..it's got me far enough to finesse the rest. I'll be doing a trial fit later on in situ.
If you have the correct pitch line for the upper part of the handrail and made the easing on thee lower part of the wreath then there may be a problem with the lower Tangent and easing. As Oldboy22 has suggested this is very exacting stuff and can prove difficult to get right.

You have come a very long way in a very short space of time (light years faster than I ever managed) and even though things may not look quite as they should the improvement in your workings are very clear and pleasing to see. KEEP THE FAITH.

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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:21 pm

Decision made.

After spending two weeks of my life faffing around with this bloody tangent handrailing malarkey, I dummied up two exactly dimensioned supports that provide the reference point as to where the two adjoining handrail faces will be. I can slide them up or down to adjust. I dummied up the easing piece from the drawing. Then added the wreath blank and twisted it every which way.

This is the closest I can come to.

Image

The faces meet up flush-ish to each other but the line of the wreath is nowhere near the original lines from the drawing.

But the top joint leaves a lot to be desired.

Image

So the approach is going to be - and pinching your idea, Mark, - build on stiffening up those two supporting columns. Make the easing - which TBH would benefit from a slight curve as well - and then adopt the Asian approach. I've got the approximate angles close enough from the softwood blank. I can see where to finesse the angles and if the face isn't at right-angles to the 'tangent' then so be it. It doesn't matter. Then when it's all glued up solid, I'll mould it in situ.
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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by Meccarroll » Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:06 am

Hi Rodger, I know you are moving away from the Tangent system but the drawing below is what I would call a Stretch Out of your stairs.

It is essentially the stairs folded out at the corner as if on a hinge at the corner so you can see each elevation side by side.

The pitch lines are shown for both top and bottom flights. The height difference of the stringers is indicated on the drawing (it matches your last measurement taken about the strings).


The riser of the bottom flight has 20mm applied from the corner.

The riser of the top flight has 185mm applied from the corner.

You can use this drawing as a starting point to first develop your easing then move on to develop the Tangent drawing.






Image
Attachments
Stretchout.jpg

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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by thatsnotafestool » Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:10 am

Thanks Mark..reassuring confirmation of my own measurement. I'm working on the easing today. The Asian approach comes later. Chainsaw at the ready :lol:
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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by Meccarroll » Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:07 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:10 am
I'm working on the easing today. The Asian approach comes later. :lol:
Keen to see the next stage, any updates Rodger?

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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by thatsnotafestool » Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:47 am

Sorry, mark..got pulled away on other 'vital' war work.
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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by Meccarroll » Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:20 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:47 am
Sorry, mark..got pulled away on other 'vital' war work.
Never mind, all in good time. ;)

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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by thatsnotafestool » Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:25 pm

Marked up (see the other thread) the softwood trial blank according to the drawing. Slowly trying to tease the wreath out. I'm finding it very hard to visualise and also to imagine where the cut lines are and to where I'm aiming - when they are buried in the wood. I'm doing it in two stages...the top end first as I know that there is that crossover point part way down where there is no twist - a useful reference point.

I'm also trying to find the best tool and technique for removing the waste. It's hard and I'm not looking forward to doing it on the walnut.

So fast forward and I brought in the blank and fixed it to my top reference point and then rotated it until it was perfectly vertical at the joint.

Image

Here's the other end. The question is.....is it also vertical?

Image
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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by thatsnotafestool » Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:27 pm

And the answer is ...

Image

Not bad. Not bad at all. :)
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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by Oldboy22 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:01 pm

Are you starting to believe?

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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by thatsnotafestool » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:52 pm

Oldboy22 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:01 pm
Are you starting to believe?
Never doubted as I've said. I doubted myself.
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by Meccarroll » Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:25 am

Wow Rodger that's great to see.

If you gave this project to most carpenters or joinery specialists they would run a mile and I mean the real ones not the clowns that claim to be professionals.

Most good joinery shops can make stairs and do circular work but I have never personally come across any locally that can do complex tangent hand-railing let alone understand the subject and yet here you are after only a couple of weeks smashing it!

I have to say I feel really proud of you Rodger, your understanding of the subject has come on leaps and bounds in no time at all.

Really nice to see this progress.

When is the book coming out!

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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:07 am

Many thanks for your kind words, Mark.

Onwards and upwards.
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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:24 pm

Wreathed in smiles ? :D

Image

It's not bad. One question...do the sides remain vertical all the way through the turn ?
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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:33 pm

Looking much better, sides should be plumb.

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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:34 pm

Easing looks to long and a bit out.

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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:36 pm

It fits. That's the main thing plus what you are seeing has also a long straight bit. It's regulation length !

If by 'a bit out' you mean the gap at the end where the 'reference' post is then that's only because the joint between wreath and easing has dropped.
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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:44 pm

Sorry bud I didn’t mean to offend, I’ll keep out of it.

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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:48 pm

Oldboy22 wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:44 pm
Sorry bud I didn’t mean to offend, I’ll keep out of it.
No offence taken.
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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:57 pm

I forgot to show this one (partly because it shows the sides could be much better). The one concern that both Mark and I had was what the c/l would be and whether it would cause issues around the bend...ie spindles hanging in mid-air. The good news is that they don't. I planned ahead (ahem) when I installed that support 'newel' :?

Image
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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by Meccarroll » Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:32 pm

That looks really good Rodger, in fact Bl..dy Brilliant!

You are moving leaps and bounds now.

This is the hardest part of the handrail so moving on to the Volute and lower Wreath should prove much easier to do.

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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by houtslager » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:38 pm

bloody good work, been watching this with dread :? as I have similar but smaller staircase to do complete = treads,risers,spindles, and newel posts too. :shock: showed a simple staircase with a 1/4 turn winders flight and a half and ended up making these 2 cases. Now I've got a flight and half with 1/4 turn to make this year. :?
slf sc1.jpg
slf sc1.jpg (123.35 KiB) Viewed 38 times
and the top flight is this
slf sc2.jpg
slf sc2.jpg (125.24 KiB) Viewed 38 times
Hand rails were ash from a couple saplings in the owners garden and turned ,shaves, spokedhaved till they looked right, left some bark on the underneath to let ppl know it was a tree once :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
You name it, I'll butcher it.

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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:12 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:57 pm
I forgot to show this one (partly because it shows the sides could be much better). The one concern that both Mark and I had was what the c/l would be and whether it would cause issues around the bend...ie spindles hanging in mid-air. The good news is that they don't. I planned ahead (ahem) when I installed that support 'newel' :?

Image
Sorry to say (and I mean that) your plan view shows something not quite right. I’m not criticising I think you should know before cutting the walnut.

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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:29 am

I agree with you. Sides not brilliantly done and curve not right. I need to listen to you more....sincerely.
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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:32 am

Many thanks, HL. Not seen you around much these days ?
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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:58 am

houtslager wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:38 pm
bloody good work, been watching this with dread :? as I have similar but smaller staircase to do complete = treads,risers,spindles, and newel posts too. :shock: showed a simple staircase with a 1/4 turn winders flight and a half and ended up making these 2 cases. Now I've got a flight and half with 1/4 turn to make this year. :? slf sc1.jpg
and the top flight is this
slf sc2.jpg

Hand rails were ash from a couple saplings in the owners garden and turned ,shaves, spokedhaved till they looked right, left some bark on the underneath to let ppl know it was a tree once :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Nice job, why don’t you start a new thread and tell us all about it.

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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:59 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:29 am
I agree with you. Sides not brilliantly done and curve not right. I need to listen to you more....sincerely.
One question are the strings at 90 degrees?

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Re: Staircase upgrade

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:06 am

Oldboy22 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:59 am
thatsnotafestool wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:29 am
I agree with you. Sides not brilliantly done and curve not right. I need to listen to you more....sincerely.
One question are the strings at 90 degrees?
A good question and one that is very difficult to answer with any degree of accuracy. The two stringers do not intersect in any meaningful way so trying to get a square at the junction is Mission Impossible as there is no junction ! My Mark 1 eyeball suggests that they are.
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