Finding new employees

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murdoch
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Finding new employees

Post by murdoch » Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:13 pm

Hi, anyone else really struggling to find good joiners? There's currently 4 of us and we really need someone else but all the people we've had on trial call themselves joiners but are usually clueless. We need someone who can build kitchens start to finish and are competent on classical machinery but we can't find anyone. Just wondered where others have advertised and where you look for new employees in case I'm missing something.
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Re: Finding new employees

Post by Meccarroll » Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:50 pm

Just took a look at your location murdoch and it's quite rural so I'd say travel and location is probably going to be part of the problem. I live about 45 miles north of you and don't think you will find someone with the skill-set you require straight off the shelf in these parts. Could you compromise between what you expect and what is actually available, do a bit of training. Ipswich is not too far, try the college there to see if they have a trainee with the skills you require, it's worth a phone call.

I went to look at a panel saw, for sale, a couple of months back, the chap selling it made kitchens for a living, he said everyone he'd tried was useless.

Mark

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Re: Finding new employees

Post by murdoch » Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:12 pm

We have recently tried someone who was part trained but I found that with the amount of work we currently have we really need someone who can just get on with minimal training. Not looking for the most amazing person, just someone with a bit of enthusiasm and a bit of experience.
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Re: Finding new employees

Post by mark270981 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:31 am

Do you have a decent CNC?

The reason I ask, is because it transformed my business, you can get away with cheaper labour, because the brains can drive the CNC, so effectively cutting all the jobs micron perfect ready for assembly.

They aren't as expensive as you think.
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Re: Finding new employees

Post by lynx » Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:46 am

We have been looking for months and months. No-one any good to fit the position. Tried a few but either soo lazy or really lacking knowledge. Many only want to do a standard 40 hour week and bugger off at 4:30. We need more comittment than that
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Re: Finding new employees

Post by Meccarroll » Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:36 am

Don't know if it's any use asking on here:

http://www.kitchenfittersforum.com/memberlist.php


Mark

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Re: Finding new employees

Post by tusses » Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:33 pm

lynx wrote:We have been looking for months and months. No-one any good to fit the position. Tried a few but either soo lazy or really lacking knowledge. Many only want to do a standard 40 hour week and bugger off at 4:30. We need more comittment than that
I don't get what happened to the work ethic ?
I grew up knowing hard work.
Drummed it into my Daughter who is doing fine , emigrated to Oz and works hard at whatever she can get.
(yeah .. that's the proud dad bit! lol )

Benefits and claim for blame seems to be the money making interests of the "youth of today"

:(

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Re: Finding new employees

Post by Leveller2911 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:19 pm

lynx wrote:We have been looking for months and months. No-one any good to fit the position. Tried a few but either soo lazy or really lacking knowledge. Many only want to do a standard 40 hour week and bugger off at 4:30. We need more comittment than that
I think one of the problem is that companies (in general) show little comittment to their employees but expect comittment from employees. The workplace has changed and the majority of employers (in my opinion) don't give two hoots about their workers. I do some work for a small building company and they often take their workers on days out, things such as go cart racing,paintball, great Christmas dinner, good Christmas bonus etc and in return their workers graft,have a common goal and in general are happy.

My father in law worked for the same employer for 40yrs, he would even work for his boss at weekends doing security at his bosses parties. You could count the number of days off he had in 40yrs on 2 hands and the day he retired his boss walked passed him in the corridor and shook his hand and said "thanks". He didn't want a gold watch or a weeks holiday in Barbados but for 40yrs he should have at least given him a token.

Now having said all that I do think employment rights have gone too far with maternity /paternity leave etc.

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Re: Finding new employees

Post by murdoch » Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:57 pm

Thanks for the replies, seems I'm not the only one struggling! Work ethic is a big problem, we've had a few young lads on trial who are looking for an apprenticeship but they just can't be bothered to work. The last one kept saying "whatever" to me whenever I tried to teach him something!

Mark, a cnc is looking like a good idea but not sure kitchens really need it as we are well set up and can build them quickly, all the designing on a computer puts me off too.
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Re: Finding new employees

Post by tusses » Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:04 am

murdoch wrote:
Mark, a cnc is looking like a good idea but not sure kitchens really need it as we are well set up and can build them quickly, all the designing on a computer puts me off too.
Don't rule it out !

It will work all day and do exactly what it's told , without saying "whatever" .. and will do it faster than any employee !
And if you think of it as an employee rather than a machine .. then you only have to pay it for a year .. then it works for free ! .. forever !

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Re: Finding new employees

Post by Meccarroll » Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:46 am

As a matter of interest how much of the work (making a shaker style kitchen) could actually be done with a CNC? and how much would a CNC for that purpose cost to buy, install, including software etc (£10,000, £20,000, £30,000...........?).

Mark

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Re: Finding new employees

Post by mark270981 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:25 am

Ok

So if you were to go big, then 45k plus vat will get you the machine then you need to make allowances for the electrics, compressed air and also for a big enough extractor.

The software can cost as little as 800 quid (Vcarve) plus the free draftsight, we use both of these everyday.

We also had cabinet vision installed, this was a biggie in terms of investment as for 2 licences it cost 22k plus vat but this software is unbelievable in terms of drawing to machining - When I say it has knocked off 75% off our time taken to produce work, i kid you not.

My machine cuts 25m per minute using a nesting PCD, or now with an extractor tool (this gets rid of all the dust from the bed - a massive time saver but also much healthier and cleaner) it cuts 15m a minute.

These machines are micron perfect when used correctly.

In terms of finance, I put large deposits down to ensure my fixed monthly outgoings remain low, however with a standard deposit 20% you are looking at around 800 pound a month, this seems a lot, however a minimum wage employee will cost you over 1200 quid.

What this will do, it will free up your good labour to concentrate on the finesse items, and you can use the cheaper labour to knock up the unitry and run the CNC. cheap labour is readily available.

I swear by technology and I embrace it wholeheartedly, I am a traditionalist at heart but I am a techy in practice.

I am sure you are bored of me by now!

All the best

Mark
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Re: Finding new employees

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:58 pm

mark270981 wrote:.....
What this will do, it will free up your good labour to concentrate on the finesse items, and you can use the cheaper labour to knock up the unitry and run the CNC. cheap labour is readily available.

I swear by technology and I embrace it wholeheartedly, I am a traditionalist at heart but I am a techy in practice.

.....
Mark
Mark, when I remember what sort of work you were doing when you first joined the forum and what you are doing now is simply gobsmacking. Your philosophy speaks volumes. I wish I had a tenth of your business nous, mate.
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
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Re: Finding new employees

Post by karl » Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:52 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote: ....I wish I had a tenth of your business nous, mate.
That, and a big pair of balls!!!

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Re: Finding new employees

Post by mark270981 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:16 pm

karl wrote:
thatsnotafestool wrote: ....I wish I had a tenth of your business nous, mate.
That, and a big pair of balls!!!
thatsnotafestool wrote:
mark270981 wrote:.....
What this will do, it will free up your good labour to concentrate on the finesse items, and you can use the cheaper labour to knock up the unitry and run the CNC. cheap labour is readily available.

I swear by technology and I embrace it wholeheartedly, I am a traditionalist at heart but I am a techy in practice.

.....
Mark
Mark, when I remember what sort of work you were doing when you first joined the forum and what you are doing now is simply gobsmacking. Your philosophy speaks volumes. I wish I had a tenth of your business nous, mate.

Thanks Roger but

I agree with Karl!! ;-)
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Re: Finding new employees

Post by Meccarroll » Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:13 am

mark270981 wrote:Ok..............................................!


I am sure you are bored of me by now!

All the best

Mark
Not at all Mark, it's a common interest and good of you to share. I suppose you have to work the numbers out m/min, extraction etc to see if it's viable to a particular business but the accuracy you mention would save a lot of time in itself. It does make sense to use a router (CNC) to dimension sheet material.

Mark

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Re: Finding new employees

Post by tusses » Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:58 pm

Meccarroll wrote:It does make sense to use a router (CNC) to dimension sheet material.

Mark
My workshop, and CNC is tiny, compared to Marks .. but yes .. I can Dimension Sheets down on the TS .. and do sometimes .. but the CNC is quicker , no setting up (measuring the fence with a tape etc. ) , and safer .. as you go nowhere near the sharp spinney things !

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Re: Finding new employees

Post by thekarter » Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:39 pm

Unfortunately for many young Brits - work ethic - is something they don't understand, hence one of the reasons Eastern Europeans are doing so well in our country. I let some of our houses to Eastern Europeans and do they work - yes sir.
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Re: Finding new employees

Post by senior » Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:23 pm

thekarter wrote:Unfortunately for many young Brits - work ethic - is something they don't understand, hence one of the reasons Eastern Europeans are doing so well in our country. I let some of our houses to Eastern Europeans and do they work - yes sir.
Alan
I take on an apprentice every other year, all young Brits, they have been great and hard working, I call bull sh*t to the above, just media talk
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Re: Finding new employees

Post by thekarter » Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:02 pm

senior wrote:
thekarter wrote:Unfortunately for many young Brits - work ethic - is something they don't understand, hence one of the reasons Eastern Europeans are doing so well in our country. I let some of our houses to Eastern Europeans and do they work - yes sir.
Alan
I take on an apprentice every other year, all young Brits, they have been great and hard working, I call bull sh*t to the above, just media talk

Reading some of the above posts they have the same opinion as me. I wish it was not the case. I think a lot of it is the fault of British attitude to education. It seems to me that the young are EXPECTED to go to university and if they don't they can't be very clever! The fact that they may be good with their hands and able with training to produce item the like of which we see on this web site is of no interest to the powers that be. What a different attitude they have in places like Germany where craftsmen are respected.
Alan

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Re: Finding new employees

Post by murdoch » Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:26 pm

Just to update, we had an Italian chap on trial a few weeks ago. He's turned out to be quite good, very polite and punctual so he's been offered a permanent job and will be staying. Relief to have some more help.
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Re: Finding new employees

Post by tusses » Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:28 pm

good result ! :-)

and neither English or Polish ! lol

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Re: Finding new employees

Post by lynx » Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:29 pm

We have had 3-4 lads enquire over the last month or so. We are looking at taking on a youngster to help with the general smaller bits and train him up.

I give everyone the chance, and told them all to send a CV over, telling me about themselves, school grades etc. I explain to them that I'm not looking for an full A grade student, just someone who has a bit up top and keen to learn.

Not one of them has sent the CV yet. Do they think they are not good enough for the job, so don't bother or just can't be arsed to get a CV wrote?
LyNx

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Re: Finding new employees

Post by Meccarroll » Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:38 pm

If they are young school leavers, they won't have much to put on a CV and to be honest what is it going to tell you. If the lads are not very good at spelling or maths then it's likely the rest of their school grades will be in the lower bracket. If you were one of those lads you would probably be thinking I've got not chance.

For manual work I don't think a CV from a young person is really that necessary or even going to tell you how that person will develop or get on in a work environment over time. You can dress up a CV or even miss important thing out so I'd think you would probably be better off calling them back for an interview, ask them to telephone you at a specified time to make the arrangement, if they are punctual give them an interview and ask them to bring their school results along if you really think it's going to make that much difference. I think you will have a better chance assess them during an interview than looking at paperwork. If they pass on interview give them a start and thats the only way to find out what they are really going to be like.

We didn't bother about CV's half as much years ago as people seem to now. A lot of tradesmen I worked with could not spell and left school with hardly any qualifications but they seemed to turn out a good job and be good with their tools.

Mark

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Re: Finding new employees

Post by mark270981 » Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:03 am

Hi Mate

I would suggest forgetting the CV requirement for young lads and just invite them in to meet them, but set it as a formal interview with a specific time, so then you can gauge smartness and timekeeping, then you can ask all the relevant questions and see what their attitude is like.
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Re: Finding new employees

Post by lynx » Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:27 am

How I see it. If they can sit down and write a CV, however good or bad, it's showing willing. The lad in here now, who is a fantastic worker didn't have a great CV but did have pervious history in School holidays with part time jobs.

I've even met these young lads already but simply asked to sent a CV over regardless. I can see past the non grades but I need them to show a bit of willing at the start.
LyNx

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Re: Finding new employees

Post by mark270981 » Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:14 am

I agree with you.

I tend to do it the opposite way though, meet them, if i like them I trial them, if they get on well keep them, if they don't then say i say see you later.

i've had 15 lads over the years come through the door only 5 were worthy of staying on.
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Re: Finding new employees

Post by MJ80 » Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:32 pm

I have had a couple of good and bad experiences with school leavers. The CV's are a waste of time, they were all the same. I was always inundated with them from the lads at building college. The ones which stuck out got a call in for a chat and a couple of trial days. I also was in touch with the college assessment people and the put me in touch with lads who had come to the end of the training and companies had gone under etc..
What I found most useful was having them along for a few days and seeing how you get on with them when they relax and you get an idea of what you can expect.
One of the lads we had was excellent, was a bit older, had worked from when he was 16 and wanted a change, Brilliant committed star. The other was a hard worker, but just couldn't get what was going on and had already done a year at college. Tried to get him some more training to bring him up to speed but he just walked. Don't think he really wanted it in his heart.
I was impressed with another lad who literally got on his bike and came and knocked on the door to give me his CV. That year he was the only one who got off his ar*e to come to the workshop. I gave him a trial day because i was impressed with his common sense. Went to fit an Oak floor in a clients house and he nicked the money out my wallet! Total t**t, really ruined it for me.
Now I just need to wait for the kids to get a bit bigger....Daughter looks like she could be interested :D
I also had a mate who could come and help in the workshop which was a bonus because he was always a steady pair of hands. If I was still in the UK I think I would find it hard to take on another apprentice without having someone else with experience as I always ended up with too much to do to carry someone.

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Re: Finding new employees

Post by tusses » Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:55 pm

MJ80 wrote:I.... and he nicked the money out my wallet! Total t**t, really ruined it for me.
kinda why I just chose to work on my own, and plan my business around that.
It's sad to say, but I just wouldn't trust anyone I didn't already know :(

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Re: Finding new employees

Post by senior » Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:05 pm

tusses wrote:
MJ80 wrote:I.... and he nicked the money out my wallet! Total t**t, really ruined it for me.
kinda why I just chose to work on my own, and plan my business around that.
It's sad to say, but I just wouldn't trust anyone I didn't already know :(
Yes very sad.
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Re: Finding new employees

Post by promhandicam » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:24 am

I generally work on my own and much as I'd like to take someone on the added paperwork and costs would mean I'd have to completely change the way I work. That said, I needed a hand this week and a 21 year old lad from the village replied to a post I put up on the community website and he was great. His Mum (!) felt it necessary to inform me that he has high functioning autism, but to be honest had she not said I wouldn't have had a clue. He picked things up quickly and within a couple of hours he was handing me the right tools and bits I needed to fit the (4100 x 670 x 38mm) worktops in the kitchen I'm refurbishing. I'd have no hesitation recommending him or using him again, and the moral for me is that its only when you actually get down to working with someone that you can see what they are going to be like.

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Re: Finding new employees

Post by Meccarroll » Sat Nov 26, 2016 1:17 pm

lynx wrote:How I see it. If they can sit down and write a CV, however good or bad, it's showing willing. The lad in here now, who is a fantastic worker didn't have a great CV but did have pervious history in School holidays with part time jobs.

I've even met these young lads already but simply asked to sent a CV over regardless. I can see past the non grades but I need them to show a bit of willing at the start.
Whichever way you choose to do it, I think you are A1+ for being prepared to give youngsters a chance in life.

Mark

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