inset brush seal - can anyone identify?

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Roger-M
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inset brush seal - can anyone identify?

Post by Roger-M » Sat Oct 26, 2019 4:52 pm

You'll have read in another thread about Steve's fabulous kitchen build for my daughter's new home. Sadly the guys who did her bifold doors were not up to the same standard. Amongst other problems one of the brush seals in the underside of one of the doors has slid out of place and been mangled as the door closed. The builder/installer is not interested in coming to fix. Can anyone identify this inset brush seal please?
door seal.jpg
All the ones I have found online are the aftermarket "screw to the surface" type. Any help greatly appreciated.
Cheers, Roger

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Re: inset brush seal - can anyone identify?

Post by davidpidge » Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:30 pm

https://www.hafele.co.uk/en/product/bru ... 300020023/
This type probably. There should be a drawing with dimensions.

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Re: inset brush seal - can anyone identify?

Post by Roger-M » Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:42 pm

That does look right. I'll get her ladyship to measure the pile length. Many thanks David.
Cheers, Roger

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Re: inset brush seal - can anyone identify?

Post by Meccarroll » Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:23 pm

Roger-M wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 4:52 pm
You'll have read in another thread about Steve's fabulous kitchen build for my daughter's new home. Sadly the guys who did her bifold doors were not up to the same standard. Amongst other problems one of the brush seals in the underside of one of the doors has slid out of place and been mangled as the door closed. The builder/installer is not interested in coming to fix. Can anyone identify this inset brush seal please?

door seal.jpg

All the ones I have found online are the aftermarket "screw to the surface" type. Any help greatly appreciated.
Such a shame that the builder has no aftermarket credit, I always look after my customers even years after I have done the work. Hope this does not cause you too much trouble.

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Re: inset brush seal - can anyone identify?

Post by Roger-M » Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:17 pm

Meccarroll wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:23 pm
Roger-M wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 4:52 pm
You'll have read in another thread about Steve's fabulous kitchen build for my daughter's new home. Sadly the guys who did her bifold doors were not up to the same standard. Amongst other problems one of the brush seals in the underside of one of the doors has slid out of place and been mangled as the door closed. The builder/installer is not interested in coming to fix. Can anyone identify this inset brush seal please?

door seal.jpg

All the ones I have found online are the aftermarket "screw to the surface" type. Any help greatly appreciated.
Such a shame that the builder has no aftermarket credit, I always look after my customers even years after I have done the work. Hope this does not cause you too much trouble.
Indeed! My daughter and son-in-law have project managed the entire design and build themselves, dealing with over 60 separate sub-contractors during the course of the planning and building, and overall they have done a fabulous job, particularly considering that the only thing they have done which was remotely related was a loft conversion in a previous semi. This time they bought a virtually uninhabitable 1920's dormer bungalow in 2/3 acre of level garden, demolished it and built a 3,800 sq ft house on 3 floors, whilst my son-in-law also started a new job and my daughter had a 2nd child. The only way they were not going to make some mistakes would have been if they had done nothing, and overall they have made far more good decisions than bad. We live 180 miles away so my input was limited, and anyway, this is their project, not mine. I did however brief them on the bifold doors and stressed that they needed an odd number so that they had one door that was left on the stack to open like a normal door.

They told me that they had commissioned a set of 5 bifold doors so what could possibly go wrong? When I eventually saw them, the fitters had provided and fitted a set of 4 on a stack, and one single door hung separately on the corner which has nothing to which it can be hooked back to secure it. Wrong! And the Aquamac 21 wiping seal has not been recessed into the stiles so that it doesn't work correctly, making closing the doors difficult because it's not acting as a wiping seal.

Sadly they made the mistake of paying the invoice in full before they had properly checked it over, and in particular they noted that they had correctly ordered a stack of 5, but a 4 and a single had been fitted. The contractors (a 2 man band) actually did some quite good work in other areas but I think bifold doors were outside their area of expertise. They have now more or less disappeared and won't take phone calls. Litigation would be more trouble than it's worth. With so many other things to organise, they have let it go as they had to move in as their rental had come to an end and there was still much to organise. With winter coming it's not a big deal in the short term but it will all need fixing next year, and no prizes for guessing who will be doing the fixing.

At that stage I will probably do a thread where I can pick your collective brains on the best solution without destroying what is already there. Having made a set of bifold doors myself I have a reasonable understanding of what needs to be done to fix it, but I'm never too proud to seek advice on this forum! :?: :lol: In the grand scheme of things it's a problem they can live with, with a solution that at worst can be measured in hundreds rather than thousands and it is definitely fixable, so no point in sweating it! Worse things have happened! :lol:
Cheers, Roger

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Re: inset brush seal - can anyone identify?

Post by jfc » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:55 am

It looks like aquamac 63 on the edge of the doors , not 21 and it doesnt get recessed into a grove . It does seem like its hard to close the doors when first fitted but at least that part is correct .
Sorry i wasnt able to help with the project , had a lot going on with my parents over the last few years that didnt end well .

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Re: inset brush seal - can anyone identify?

Post by Roger-M » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:10 pm

jfc wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:55 am
It looks like aquamac 63 on the edge of the doors , not 21 and it doesnt get recessed into a groove . It does seem like its hard to close the doors when first fitted but at least that part is correct .
Sorry i wasnt able to help with the project , had a lot going on with my parents over the last few years that didnt end well .
The photo shows the hinge line between two of the doors in the stack of 4, and the seal used between them is indeed Aquamac 63. However, the single opening door hinged on the corner post on its own has Aquamac 21 down the side of the closing stile. This hasn't been recessed and fouls the edge of the 4 door stack. It's looking increasingly likely that I am the one that will have to resolve this mess as I feel a little responsible having persuaded my daughter to have bifolds rather than sliding doors in the belief that they would run as smoothly, and close as easily, as our own. I'll be visiting over the weekend and I'll take copious photos and start a new thread as I would welcome some input on the line of least resistance in sorting them out.

So sorry to hear about your parents Jase. I know from my own experience that it's a difficult time when you become more worried about your parents than your own children. :(
Cheers, Roger

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Re: inset brush seal - can anyone identify?

Post by Meccarroll » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:48 pm

jfc wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:55 am
It looks like aquamac 63 on the edge of the doors , not 21 and it doesnt get recessed into a grove .


I did a quick internet scan for Aquamac 63 and found this https://www.axminster.co.uk/axcaliber-w ... eal-666268 and a few similar methods.

A few years ago while working in a local joinery shop I saw a young joiner make a new door frame for an existing door then apply Aquamac 63 to the side rebates of the frame and after fitting the door never shut properly, the door used a security automatic closer, it was at a school. I'm not 100% sure but think AQ 21 would have been a better choice in that case.

I would have thought the AQ63 could be fit either set in slightly (as above) or just kerf fit and left full width as you suggest Jason depending upon the application and gap required to fill. Not quite sure why Axminster show the seal slightly set in but there must be a reason for the diagram.

I think this link https://www.marchesironmongery.co.uk/aq ... white.html shows AQ63 standard application.

Mark

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Re: inset brush seal - can anyone identify?

Post by jfc » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:24 pm

So take your router and cut a new rebate for the aquamac 21 ( cutter here https://www.axminster.co.uk/axcaliber-w ... eal-666074 )
The 63 is used between the doors to take up the gap the hinges leave but there is also a cutter for that https://www.axminster.co.uk/axcaliber-w ... eal-666268
Ops , thats already been posted . Personally i use aquamac 21 for everything apart from where required like on foldy slidey doors .

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Re: inset brush seal - and bifold door fix.

Post by Roger-M » Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:26 pm

Thanks guys. A plan is bubbling to the surface. I shall try and re-use the existing door and scarf some matching European Oak in where required. The 4 door stack and the single door will have to be taken off and the top track taken down so that the existing end roller set can be taken out and replaced by a new intermediate roller set. The track is Hafele Slido Fold 100U. I see from the publicity material that they are supposed to be fitted to doors 45mm-68mm thick. These doors are only 45mm thick which strikes me as a bit thin for bifolds - I made mine 60mm thick. However, the existing 4 stack already uses an intermediate roller set, so I'm hoping that the fix planned will work OK. I really don't want to have to replace the doors.

One of the reasons the 4 door stack is binding is that the lower roller sets are attached too far down the doors so that they barely clear the base of the bottom track, and the slightest bit of debris jams underneath the bottom roller sets which bear on the sides of the base track. I plan to raise them by about 3mm to give more clearance for debris in the bottom track.

The existing single door will be rehung on the end of the stack, replacing the existing Aquamac 21 with Aquamac 63 to seal what will be a hinge line. There is already a doortop down the side of the end frame with an inset Aquamac 21 seal which will act as a compression seal. Then I'll fit a new multi-point lock into a new euro-groove down the closing stile of the door.

All this will need to be done in warmer weather so will have to wait till the spring.
Cheers, Roger

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Re: inset brush seal - can anyone identify?

Post by jfc » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:40 pm

From memory and looking at the centour pdf's i dont think you can have five sliding . It has to be four and one or even numbers to slide one way .
I guess they want one side roller the other side lock . Make sure the door will fit both , i'm not sure you can as the lock will foul the roller when recessed .
all my stuff is 45mm thick , no idea why people go thicker .

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Re: inset brush seal - can anyone identify?

Post by Meccarroll » Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:19 pm

jfc wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:40 pm

all my stuff is 45mm thick , no idea why people go thicker .
Not made any double glazed joinery for a while but last time I did 57mm was a (General Standard) section thickness used that fulfilled the U value requirement for wood framed sections that worked with double glazing allowing for the glass, glazing tape and beads either side. I've been working mainly on site over the past 2-3 years so things might have changed now. Depending on exposure location and entire size of framing the section size is sometimes increased due to wind loading (not usually a problem with domestic applications though, more associated with industrial/flats/office blocks/high rise buildings etc).

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Re: inset brush seal - can anyone identify?

Post by Roger-M » Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:35 pm

jfc wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:40 pm
From memory and looking at the centour pdf's i dont think you can have five sliding . It has to be four and one or even numbers to slide one way .
I guess they want one side roller the other side lock . Make sure the door will fit both , i'm not sure you can as the lock will foul the roller when recessed .
all my stuff is 45mm thick , no idea why people go thicker .
I don't think having 5 sliders is a problem. Here's a set of 5 sliders using Centor track which is the set up that was ordered but not delivered and installed. I can't see why the Hafele track should be any different. Anyway, this one is on the back burner now until the Spring as it will involve a long day with all the doors off!

Fair comment re the 45mm thickness. I just measured up a set that we liked. I think 60mm gives the whole set up a rigidity that my daughter's doors seem to lack, although that could be because they are binding in the bottom channel at the moment. Ours close with a satisfying "thud" - a bit like the doors of a VW :lol: :lol: . No doubt properly installed 45mm doors do the same!
Cheers, Roger

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Re: inset brush seal - can anyone identify?

Post by Leveller2911 » Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:50 pm

Meccarroll wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:19 pm

Not made any double glazed joinery for a while but last time I did 57mm was a (General Standard) section thickness used that fulfilled the U value requirement for wood framed sections that worked with double glazing allowing for the glass, glazing tape and beads either side. I've been working mainly on site over the past 2-3 years so things might have changed now. Depending on exposure location and entire size of framing the section size is sometimes increased due to wind loading (not usually a problem with domestic applications though, more associated with industrial/flats/office blocks/high rise buildings etc).
I think section sizes are getting out of hand. I'm making some casement windows to replace some existing ones which are triple glazed and are 69mm thick and that is the sashes. Triple glazing in the UK is a nonsense, sold by Charlatans preying on the gullible unless you live in the Scottish Highlands.Won't be long before we make sashed out of 75mm thick timber..

If I need to meet current regs (ie not Listed) I go for 54mm finish and generally 4-12-4 Softcoat Low E, Superspacer, Argon fill giving a U value of around 1.1. I would imagine its almsot impossible to meet regs with 45mm thick stuff nowdays even if you go down the slimlite route filled with Krypton or Xenon.

As an aside I recently lost out to Anglian Windows on a job I priced up on an old ex railway station house . The client said they were supplying and fitting timber windows with all matching mouldings to the existing windows.. I found it hard to believe Anglian would be cheaper or do the same mouldings as existing. The plumber sent me some photo's of the new windows and they are modern stormproof windows and not casements , shite modern mouldings and no better than Jeld Wen tat... :lol: That said I'm still gobsmacked they were cheaper knowing how they rook people..

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Re: inset brush seal - can anyone identify?

Post by Meccarroll » Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:34 am

Leveller2911 wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:50 pm


As an aside I recently lost out to Anglian Windows on a job I priced up on an old ex railway station house . The client said they were supplying and fitting timber windows with all matching mouldings to the existing windows.. I found it hard to believe Anglian would be cheaper or do the same mouldings as existing. The plumber sent me some photo's of the new windows and they are modern stormproof windows and not casements , shite modern mouldings and no better than Jeld Wen tat... :lol: That said I'm still gobsmacked they were cheaper knowing how they rook people..
It sounds like you were matching existing and Anglican just used the profiles they had in stock so not really a level playing for pricing.

I recently had an opportunity to walk around a small window/door manufacturing establishment, they had some really interesting machinery one of which was a spindle moulder with digital setup. One of the directors told me they could set stacks of moulding blocks on shafts which they could then exchange on the spindle moulder and automatically have the spindle moulder make the necessary adjustments using the digital readout. It was really a really automated setup that had ££££££ of investment thrown at it but seemed to made production a breeze. There would be no way I could compete with that setup unless I was making individual one off curved items.

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Re: inset brush seal - can anyone identify?

Post by Leveller2911 » Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:28 pm

Meccarroll wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:34 am


It sounds like you were matching existing and Anglican just used the profiles they had in stock so not really a level playing for pricing.

I recently had an opportunity to walk around a small window/door manufacturing establishment, they had some really interesting machinery one of which was a spindle moulder with digital setup. One of the directors told me they could set stacks of moulding blocks on shafts which they could then exchange on the spindle moulder and automatically have the spindle moulder make the necessary adjustments using the digital readout. It was really a really automated setup that had ££££££ of investment thrown at it but seemed to made production a breeze. There would be no way I could compete with that setup unless I was making individual one off curved items.
The level playing field thing seems to crop up a fair bit these days. I do work for a local building company and they always say "we will leave the spec up to you" so I price for decent stuff so they don't get call backs but I'm often undercut by other people but in the cases I know about they use cheap shite materials.. Can't win sometimes.lol..

Computerised Spindles are good but expect to pay upwards of £12k+ but if you have repetitive work then it pays dividends.If you go for a dedicated window processing machine that does tenons, mouldings etc then the sky is the limit with pricing. Companies like that rarely do a couple of bespoke windows neary always restricted to about 5 or 6 different styles.. I'm happy in my small workshop making a few here and there. :lol:

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