Ok how many of you guys would..............

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Leveller2911
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Ok how many of you guys would..............

Post by Leveller2911 » Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:49 pm

Make external doors,gates or windows using the Festool Domino XL and if so why? If you don't then why not?.

The reason I ask is I subscribe to a you-choober who makes tables etc mostly but does the odd door or window and he believes the Domino Joint is as strong and will last as long as a Traditional Mortice and Tenon. I gave my opinion that it isn't as strong because its a floating tenon so both ends need to be secured either with glue or peg whereas a M&T can be glued, wedged and or draw bored/pegged.

He believes drilling a timber peg into each side of the Domino XL and resin will mean the joint will last longer than a M&T. I pointed out that the M&T has been around for 3000yrs and still used because no one has come up with a better way . I know there is the Mitre Master system which is good but this is which is better for external windows,Doors, entrance gates etc........

I also pointed out that when using a Domino joint the only thing preventing water getting from the outside in is the glue , if that fails water will pass straight through the joint around the Domino, ie you can see day light through the joint above and below the domino whereas the tenon and haunch is the complete width of the stile,rail etc............

Opinions please and yes I'm bored as f**k tonight and can't hink of anything more exciting to talk about now I've stopped paying my TV Licence due to BBC bias... :lol: :roll:

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Re: Ok how many of you guys would..............

Post by woodsmith » Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:51 am

I've only used a standard Domino machine once to make external joinery and that was for my own front door frame. We have a listed building, I needed to replace the crappy front door which had a glass panel but Conservation insisted it had to be glass free which would have made the hall dark. The chap at Conservation was an ex chippie and royal pain in the butt, he had fallen out with me previously over a customer project when he told the customer I didn't know what I was doing. He was insisting on a stupid design then rubbishing mine. Fortunately the customer was smart and willing to read Ellis so the next meeting the **** got shot down in flames. Anyway he then hated me and no glass in door but he said I could put glass in the frame I think because he thought it was impossible. Bearing in mind this was a 75mm thick oak door and I only had about 150mm each side of the door and so the frame is only 50mm each side of the 50mm glass.

So, long story, I used home made oak Dominos to spread the load, 12 per joint and used resorcinol adhesive to glue it all together. The door and frame is painted black, faces west and gets wet and hot in equal measure but the frame has been fine for the last 10 years and will probably outlast the door. That said I wouldn't use use them on anything that was stressed like the door itself but for windows I think they would work if it's done carefully.
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Re: Ok how many of you guys would..............

Post by MJ80 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:56 am

Funny you should be asking this. I'm over in Germany and the whole door system is completely different here and they are reliant on the domino or large dowels as the standard fixing system.
I'm literally about to start the front door for our house and it has been giving me the most enormous headache. The standard here is a double rebate which can either finish overlaid on the casing or into the casing, depending on the hinge system used, and the backset of the lock. The standard door section sizes are much wider than at home, we are looking at 68, 78, 88, or 96mm made up from laminations. I have been ruminating over this job for far too long. The double rebate really messes up using M&T and wedges, I think that is why they go on the dowel system. Obviously I am not a fan of this at all, on all the doors I have seen there is no reinforcement, the same is shown in all the standard plans and textbooks. Is there something we are missing in the UK? I have got a load of the college standard texts from a friend of mine here and it is pretty interesting to compare. The doors are also generally a bit larger than in the UK. This leads me to think we may be a bit overly precious about the M&T, but I completely agree about the moisture ingress problem. Everything here like festool seems to be a system build, from the joint system to the paint system - I hate buying into systems as it seems only to make the simple solution redundant and give manufacturers somewhere else to point blame when there is a failure. I'm going with the 88mm door section in Sapele for this job using blind double mortices and pegs to avoid all the rebates, but i might also go on using the morticer to make really big square domino holes then make some dominos fit to see how it works. I am not keen at all with this on the base rail without having something down the middle to give it some more meat into the stiles. Actually this is a silly idea, how the heck am I going to get the rails into the Morticer? I think the speed is the main advantage with the Domino system, I know I use the small one a heck of a lot for furniture.
Anyway I need to get some more Sapele for the raised panels as I haven't got enough for both sides and Tricoya is not available here.

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Re: Ok how many of you guys would..............

Post by Meccarroll » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:06 pm

Personally I can not see how a Domino joint can be any stronger than a traditional M&T joint, that point would have to be backed up by some real logic and I just can not see any to back that statement up.

Overall I think the M&T is a better joint for the points you make Leveller. Domino is probably just easier, simpler and more cost effective but that does not add up to a better joint.

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Re: Ok how many of you guys would..............

Post by jfc » Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:29 pm

Before the domino they used dowels to make cheap doors . I just use a mortice and tenon cause its proper innit . Plus i have a tenoner and dont own a domino . :lol:

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Re: Ok how many of you guys would..............

Post by Leveller2911 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:51 pm

Cheers for the replies guys and all interesting points/views and I would just add I'm no Luddite and happy to use technology to make life easier. For me I Think the Domino system for carcases etc is great although I tend to use it for the face frames , groove the back of the face frames and then rebate the sides, tops, bases etc but I will wait a couple of decades and see how other people get on with it for exterior work but currently I can't see it and for me the fact that you are relying on the glue to prevent water ingress is a major no no.............. Anyway cheers again and hope you all have work coming in.........

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Re: Ok how many of you guys would..............

Post by jfc » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:26 pm

People will always choose the easy route and fastest to make money and save time . Craftsmen do the job properly .
I'll change that to tradesmen to cover any trained person that gets involved in our trade .
I can hear 9fingers wincing from here at my workshop set up :D

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Re: Ok how many of you guys would..............

Post by thatsnotafestool » Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:12 pm

Doesn't the standard M&T allow more water in ? That mortice...cut all the way through to the 'open' end of the stile. Now a Domino on the other hand...nice and cosy inside its own little pocket.

On the subject...why does a haunched M&T resist twist and an ordinary one doesn't ? Allegedly.
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
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Re: Ok how many of you guys would..............

Post by woodsmith » Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:21 am

MJ if the door is made up from laminated sections then why not laminate the door?
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Re: Ok how many of you guys would..............

Post by MJ80 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:54 am

That is another option I had considered.

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Re: Ok how many of you guys would..............

Post by Meccarroll » Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:52 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:12 pm
Doesn't the standard M&T allow more water in ? That mortice...cut all the way through to the 'open' end of the stile. Now a Domino on the other hand...nice and cosy inside its own little pocket.

On the subject...why does a haunched M&T resist twist and an ordinary one doesn't ? Allegedly.
1. If you neglect an item of joinery end grain can soak up water, it's not a failure of the joint system, it's poor maintenance.

2. A haunch will provide support and stop the bottom/top rail from trying to curl/cup.

Years ago glue, if available, was not particularly resistant to water or insect attack so the joints had to be fairly robust on their own. You can make a M&T joint hold without glue. I worked at an old Estate years ago and made a few gates with just M&T joints draw bored together, no glue. The foreman said that's how they were made by the Craftsmen at the Hall years ago so I should do the same, they seemed to hold ok. It might be better to glue a joint but I don't think they had it years ago.

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Re: Ok how many of you guys would..............

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:00 am

Meccarroll wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:52 am
thatsnotafestool wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:12 pm
Doesn't the standard M&T allow more water in ? That mortice...cut all the way through to the 'open' end of the stile. Now a Domino on the other hand...nice and cosy inside its own little pocket.

On the subject...why does a haunched M&T resist twist and an ordinary one doesn't ? Allegedly.
1. If you neglect an item of joinery end grain can soak up water, it's not a failure of the joint system, it's poor maintenance.
But a Domino is a 'blind mortice (if that's the right word) and so, unlike a tenon taken all the way through the stile...leaving all that lovely endgrain to soak up water (if not maintained)...well, the Domino doesn't have that problem.

Thinking this through a bit more....a Domino is nothing more than a loose tenon. So if the Domino has the same dimensions as a loose tenon...and it was pegged at both ends then I'd argue that's it's just as strong as a M&T but doesn't suffer from the endgrain issue on a through tenon...

and is damn sight quicker to make !

Where a Domino starts to not be as good is when the stile and rail sizes start to get larger.

That's my two-pennorth..limited as it is !
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
Friedrich Nietzsche

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Re: Ok how many of you guys would..............

Post by Meccarroll » Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:48 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:00 am

Thinking this through a bit more....a Domino is nothing more than a loose tenon. So if the Domino has the same dimensions as a loose tenon...and it was pegged at both ends then................
........................Then it would be a loose tenon not a Domino ;) .

It's good but so far as I can see the Domino system is designed to use several Dominos in place of a M&T joint in a door.

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Re: Ok how many of you guys would..............

Post by Leveller2911 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:03 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:00 am
Meccarroll wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:52 am
thatsnotafestool wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:12 pm
Doesn't the standard M&T allow more water in ? That mortice...cut all the way through to the 'open' end of the stile. Now a Domino on the other hand...nice and cosy inside its own little pocket.

On the subject...why does a haunched M&T resist twist and an ordinary one doesn't ? Allegedly.
1. If you neglect an item of joinery end grain can soak up water, it's not a failure of the joint system, it's poor maintenance.
But a Domino is a 'blind mortice (if that's the right word) and so, unlike a tenon taken all the way through the stile...leaving all that lovely endgrain to soak up water (if not maintained)...well, the Domino doesn't have that problem.

Thinking this through a bit more....a Domino is nothing more than a loose tenon. So if the Domino has the same dimensions as a loose tenon...and it was pegged at both ends then I'd argue that's it's just as strong as a M&T but doesn't suffer from the endgrain issue on a through tenon...

and is damn sight quicker to make !

Where a Domino starts to not be as good is when the stile and rail sizes start to get larger.

That's my two-pennorth..limited as it is !
Hi TNAF, regarding the ingress of water. If you open a motice and tenon joint say 1mm you can't see through the joint because the tenon runs the full width of the still and the haunch which doesn't would still be around 25mm long so no water can pass through the door. If you then look at a Domino joint and open it 1mm above and below the domino you will see all the way through the joint so the point is the Domino joint relies on glue to prevent ingress of water, think capillary action . Imagine a 9" bottom and middle rail where there might be 3 domino's and then you can see the area where water can ingress past the Domino's but you don't get that with a Hauched M&T.


If we then look at strength the tenon only floats one end ,ie the open end as its formed from one solid piece of timber whereas a domino is floating both ends which again relies on glue and little more whereas a tenon can either be machanically fixed with wedges or draw bore dowelled/pegged through the tenon. By the way when a M&T is "pegged" it should be properly draw bored (same as stair newel to string fixing) which is not the same as clamping the joint up then drilling a hole all the way through the joint and hammering in a peg. A Domino with a peg both ends will firstly weaken the Domino as you've drilled 2 holes through it and you can only drill through a clamped joint and hammer a peg/dowel in rather than draw bore.

The end of the tenon where it is exposed to the air isn't in an area where water will ingress through because the edge of any door is protected to an extent by the frame ,ir only a 2-3mm door joint.

Anyone got any ideas on what length of warranty companies give on Dowel jointed exterior doors?.

I've made wardrobe doors with the Domino and it was ok, still had to glue the MDF panels in Tulipwood doors as I'm wary of the doors dropping and I wouldn't make any internal door of any size,weight with the Domino system for reasons of dropping over time. If I wasn't charging money for my Joinery and did it as a hobby I would probably give it a go but as people pay good money I wouldn't risk making an external door from a Domino..........

Enjoyed reading the posts guys and some interesting points made.

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Re: Ok how many of you guys would..............

Post by Leveller2911 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:04 pm

jfc wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:29 pm
Before the domino they used dowels to make cheap doors . I just use a mortice and tenon cause its proper innit . Plus i have a tenoner and dont own a domino . :lol:
All good reasons Jase.................. :lol:

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Re: Ok how many of you guys would..............

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:29 pm

Really interesting post, thanks, Leveller...I learned an awful lot and am now looking at my joints with a different perspective !
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
Friedrich Nietzsche

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Re: Ok how many of you guys would..............

Post by Meccarroll » Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:38 pm

jfc wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:29 pm
............... proper innit . Plus i have a tenoner and dont own a domino . :lol:
Only one Tenoner Jase? and NO domino.........About time you did something proper innit! ;) LoL

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Re: Ok how many of you guys would..............

Post by jfc » Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:58 am

I know i know , i need another tenoner !

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