Box frame assembly

[stevep]

Glue and screw? Glue and nail? Or no glue at all?
What about hardboard for the backs? I've seen plywood used, but that seems very susceptible to worm to me. Could have a brushed coat of Cuprinol but that's another day to allow for drying before I can drag it into the customers front room.
Last question, does anyone fit wagtails these days, or are they only used by fitters who can't install them plumb....

Pissed off with this job as I've just seen the price of lead weights from Mightonproducts.

[jfc]

Wag tails are a must if your using weights . i think the london sash weight co do lead a £ per lb

[mr clewlow]

buy the lead from here.
http://www.wis-ltd.com/

£25 for a 9.1 kilo 38mm bar. tell them you work with michael clewlow.

also the draught proofing is cheaper than shiton

[stevep]

Thanks Mike. I think that's about the same price as Mighton actually, but all metal prices are through the roof nowdays. I've got about 30kg of scrap that I've accumulated over the years but it would probably take too long to mess about with - easier to go and buy some ready made.

[roger&out]

Wagtails yes, every time. I wouldn't bother with glue above sill level but I would maybe use it where the stiles enter the sill, as a sealant. Apart from that I'd just use nails, but before that I spline the outer linings to the stiles, to act as a stop against driven rain.

If it's modern joinery softwood you've got to use some kind of preservative. I like to believe that the Victorians (whose best work has lasted very well) when using 'red deal' (pine) used only heartwood, and bedded everything together at joints with white lead paste, which acted as a sealant filling voids, but also detered fungal growth through its toxicity. Any other thoughts on this?

[thatsnotafestool]

Glue and screw? Glue and nail? Or no glue at all?
.......

Having just 'glued' I think that I can say with some authority and not without a modicum of cussing and swearing accompanied by glued-up fingers that simply screwing is best. In every sense of the word

[mrgrimsdale]

Glue and screw? Glue and nail? Or no glue at all?
What about hardboard for the backs? I've seen plywood used, but that seems very susceptible to worm to me. Could have a brushed coat of Cuprinol but that's another day to allow for drying before I can drag it into the customers front room.
Last question, does anyone fit wagtails these days, or are they only used by fitters who can't install them plumb....

Pissed off with this job as I've just seen the price of lead weights from Mightonproducts.

I never put backs on. They can be a problem in the long term in that masonry debris gathers behind and can be a damp retaining factor. If instead it falls to the bottom of the box it can be hoovered out once every 50 years or so.
Also I never use wag tails (mid feathers or whatever you call them) as they are unnecessary if the weights are hung properly and tend to end up broken and blocking the weights. Where they should be necessary i.e. for a window out of plumb (in an old building) they don't work too well anyway.

Weights - scrap yards for weights. Or lead scrap and cast your own in a sand box and make them to suit - short fat ones, long thin ones etc
Ordinary builders soft sand will do - it usually has just enough clay in it to retain the shape. You can then saw or drill the casting as necessary,

[stevep]

Got the weights from a scrap yard - found 8 of them in various sizes, had to cut some down and use the offcuts as make-weights, but much cheaper than buying new weights - £100 for 60 kg total (lead prices are through the roof at the moment).
Ended up glueing and screwing the two boxes, but did the final assembly with (boxes to cill and head) with screws and oil based mastic.
Took me the whole day to fit the frame and the sashes - the opening was on the piss. Had to trim a few bricks back with the Fein fitted with the diamond cutter, very good as there is little dust compared with angle grinder, and doesn't shake the brickwork like a hammer and chisel. Each sash weighed 16kg with the units fitted and were not easy to hang on my own, would have been a lot easier with another pair of hands.
Can't see how anyone could make and fit a new sash window for less than £1200, especially double glazed. And I can see why Jas recommends spiral balance weights...

[mrgrimsdale]

Got the weights from a scrap yard - found 8 of them in various sizes, had to cut some down and use the offcuts as make-weights, but much cheaper than buying new weights - £100 for 60 kg total (lead prices are through the roof at the moment).
Ended up glueing and screwing the two boxes, but did the final assembly with (boxes to cill and head) with screws and oil based mastic.
Took me the whole day to fit the frame and the sashes - the opening was on the piss. Had to trim a few bricks back with the Fein fitted with the diamond cutter, very good as there is little dust compared with angle grinder, and doesn't shake the brickwork like a hammer and chisel. Each sash weighed 16kg with the units fitted and were not easy to hang on my own, would have been a lot easier with another pair of hands.
Can't see how anyone could make and fit a new sash window for less than £1200, especially double glazed. And I can see why Jas recommends spiral balance weights...

Slightly mystified by 'final assembly' etc. The trad way is to join head, pulley stiles and cill, then to add outer linings, all glued and nailed. Then fix inner linings, nailed but not glued. Then the sash is fitted with the inner linings removed, which are then nailed and glued (avoiding the sash pocket) when the frame is all wedged and OK

[thatsnotafestool]

Interesting, Jacob. If you don't have any back linings, how do you fix the box frame into the opening?

Steve, how did you do yours?

[mrgrimsdale]

Interesting, Jacob. If you don't have any back linings, how do you fix the box frame into the opening?
...

In the simple and perfect traditional way that they have all been fixed for 300 years; wedges, folding or otherwise, at each end of the head and the cill.
Impossible to do with the inner linings in place. They are fitted later and if necessary can be scribed to fit the masonry.

[jfc]

Very rare around here to see one with out a back and never seen one without the parting slip wagtail thingies . Sounds like your only doing half the job Jacob

[mighton]

Hello Steve, and everyone else.

Just to let you know that Mighton also supply steel weights which can be used. More often than not steel will fit in your box which will save you having to pay lead prices. Steel is quite a bit cheaper.

Sorry, didnt mean to do a sales thing on everyone, however not everyone is aware that steel is available and that you can save money going that route.
If anyone has any questions please feel free to call me at the office if you wish.
01223 497097

Regards
Nick @ Mighton Products

[jfc]

Dont the steel weights have to be bigger to get the same weight as lead ? Thats the main problem as the steel weights wont fit in the pockets when fitting double glazing .

[mrgrimsdale]

Very rare around here to see one with out a back and never seen one without the parting slip wagtail thingies . Sounds like your only doing half the job Jacob

Backs and wagtails in later edwardian stuff but often not in earlier, esp not in stone buildings in my experience. I just copy what's there, they knew more about it than me.

[mr clewlow]

for once in my life i agree with jacob

i replace around 40 box frames a year, the wagtails are a pita. never seen one with a back on?

[thatsnotafestool]

How are they fixed in? Metal brackets to the outer and inner lining?

[mrgrimsdale]

How are they fixed in? Metal brackets to the outer and inner lining?

How are what fixed in? The whole window - wedges top and bottom. Midfeathers hang free in a slot in the top lining with a wooden peg through a hole to keep it in place.

[thatsnotafestool]

OK...I got to ask. WTF is a midfeather?

[mrgrimsdale]

OK...I got to ask. WTF is a midfeather?

A slip of wood hanging down between the weights to stop them clanking together.

[mr clewlow]

i only fix them through the top lining, straight into the wooden lintol. sometimes get a fixing through the cill horn. then wedge it in. sand and cement to the exterior reveal. wooden lining to the internal reveal.

[thatsnotafestool]

OK...I got to ask. WTF is a midfeather?

A slip of wood hanging down between the weights to stop them clanking together.

I thought you didn't fit wagtails !

[stevep]

Just to clear up the 'final assembly' question Mr Grim - A bit complicated due to me making the thing in the workshop and then bringing it down to the island - I screwed it all together in the workshop to check it all fitted, then took it apart again to put it in the van. When I came to fit it I screwed it back together again, glueing the boxes up and using mastic for the joints with the head and cill. Lifted the whole thing into the opening and wedged it at the head and cill.
It will have a mortar fillet on the outside, and the inside will need some plastering repaired where I took off the original architraves - and yes, I resorted to a few squirts of foam here and there but only to stop the mortar and plaster disappearing down the cavity, honest. Victorian brickwork, lime mortar, lime plaster plus 120 years you're bound to get a few holes.

Never heard them called midfeathers before - I like the name wagtail as it sounds right. We also call them staff beads down here, some people call them closing beads. The one original frame left didn't have wagtails fitted, and sometimes the weights touch, that's why I put them in the new one ( I use the term 'new' loosely, as you all know it's really just a substantial repair)

Thanks Mr Mighton for the steel weights suggestion, but each sash weighs a touch over 16kg, so had to be lead. There's going to be a bloody big bang when the cord rots in a few years time.

[thatsnotafestool]

Interesting little wrinkle that I nearly missed. I didn't realise that in a, say, 6 x 6 window that the top three panes on the bottom sash sit up inside a groove in the meeting rail. At least they do in the old sashes in the house and looking at Ellis, a detail that I nearly missed.

Any other ways?

[mrgrimsdale]

....
Any other ways?

No. There is only one way that I've ever seen.
As I've been saying for many years; a trad sash window is a highly sophisticated piece of design and technology thanks to the input of nearly 300 years of skilled craftspeople. Every possible detail has reached perfection (with variations).

[jfc]

Grims right . Everything that can be done to a trad sash has been done and sorted . I prefer the victorian design as they have ironed out all the wrinkles . Like adding backs and wag tail / parting slips / weight stoppy clangy things .
Now we have double glazing to contend with and u-values so its our turn to re design the sash . I think my design is as close to the victorian one as possible and i havnt changed alot .

[mr clewlow]

Grims right . Everything that can be done to a trad sash has been done and sorted . I prefer the victorian design as they have ironed out all the wrinkles . Like adding backs and wag tail / parting slips / weight stoppy clangy things .
Now we have double glazing to contend with and u-values so its our turn to re design the sash . I think my design is as close to the victorian one as possible and i havnt changed alot .

apart from you are internal beading?

[jfc]

rather than putty , yes .

[mr clewlow]

putty? who said that.
do you use the spacer blocks and gasket for your glazing?
if not are you not worried that the rebate will let water into the internal section?

[jfc]

why are you asking me stupid questions ? If i was worried i wouldnt make windows and doors would i you silly tit

[mr clewlow]

so you use an internal rebate? no weather seal gasket.
the rebate is designed to let water escape to the outside? do you have shares in glazing silicone then

[jfc]

Just never had a unit or work fail doing what im doing . Why change it because of whats said on internet forums ?

[stevep]

Now we have double glazing to contend with and u-values so its our turn to re design the sash . I think my design is as close to the victorian one as possible and i havnt changed alot .

I think mines closer ...Don't really, but I've copied a few ideas from all the posts here in the past - one piece dgu, double sided glazing bar tape, wooden beads instead of putty etc. It's actually bloody difficult to get them looking right with such a thick dgu, as the inside moulding is tight, the outside beads are skinny and there's not really enough room on the meeting rail for a sash fastener.

Old window (Google streetview, thats why it's all out of shape) Top window is plastic of course, at least there was some attempt to copy the Victorian style, more than can be said for the bottom one.


New one. Top one used to look sort of ok, but now it looks crap next to this!


Wealden narrow sash cutter gave me this on the inside of the sashes


Beading on the outside made to look like real putty! The joints haven't cracked already - thats the mastic squeezed out that needs a wipe down with turps before the final top coat of paint. Still need to do the mortar fillet on the outside too.


Had to grind the back of the sash fastener to fit the narrow meeting rail on the top sash


If I do any more I'l be tempted to up the sash thickness from 44mm to, say, 50mm. And I'll think about spirals (but they look a bit crap. Is there any way they can be put in the box and have the sash cord / pulley arrangement???)

[mr clewlow]

toolstation pully wheels?

why the silver screws?

[jfc]

Steve , what i have worked out from doing quite a few is .........

you need to shave the back off the sash lock to make it fit if you do a trad meeting rail
solution is to make the meeting rail the same size and add a brush strip .

spirels look crap hanging on the outside like a sash cord but letting them into the frame pretty much hides them .

The putty detail needs quirks or it will get damaged too easy plus if you make it the same size as your rebate you have a ref mark for your tenon shoulders .

Hope that helps a bit .

[thatsnotafestool]

Pocket piece on the outside of the parting bead? Is that normal? I thought that it usually went behind the bottom sash.

[jfc]

It will be ok as long as hes dominoed it

[mr clewlow]

you might want to use a nail punch on the pins in the staff bead

[jfc]

The unprimed not yet finished ones ? Why send them home if he needs to take the beads off again ?

[mr clewlow]

why would you need to remove the staff bead?