Cutting Tenons

[Mr Ed]

Just wondering what everyones preferred method for cutting tenons is, specifically the shoulders

Personally, I have always cut the shoulders with the tablesaw blade set to the correct height to cut the shoulder. The issue with this is that if you don't have the overhead type guard is not really a safe operation with the regular type of guard removed. I usually then use the bandsaw to make the cheek cuts which is fine.

No doubt having a tenoner or a spindle solves the issue, with the right tooling. Does anyone have experience of the tenoning cutter that CMT make as a kind of poor mans alternative to a spindle http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp? ... e=1&jump=0 . I'm wary of using a regular straight router cutter to form the shoulder as it tends to leave a bit of a hairy edge on the shoulder which is not ideal.

Any tips gratefully received, as whilst I'm happy with the output quality of my current method I don't think the safety aspect is quite right.

Ed


EDIT - found this as well http://www.wealdentool.com/cgi-bin/sh00 ... aT2434_2d8 any comments?

[mtr1]

I use a tenoner Ed. But you might want to look at this option too http://www.rutlands.co.uk/cgi-bin/psProdSrch.cgi?mode=user&transid=&search_text=tenoning+jig&submit=Go I've used one before and they are pretty good, you can do angled tenons easy. You need the 3/4 slot in your table saw by the way.

[PAC]

I either do as you do or for larger cuts I made my version of Steve Maskery's Ultimate Tennon Jig. I quite like the look of the Wealdon tennoning cutter for the router. Having said all that I have just bought a flush mount for my spindle so will be tennoning on my spindle when I make the windows I am currently about to make.

[davyowen]

A tablesaw is not a suitable tool for cutting tenons, but I understand why people with limited machinery available would go for that option. Personally, I would always recommend using the bandsaw for cutting the cheeks and then a safer alternative for the shoulders would be to cut them by hand, with a mitre saw with depth stop or a radial arm saw.

I personally use the spindle moulder, but before I had that I always cut the cheeks on the bandsaw and the shoulders by hand.

[nickw]

I've got the Wealden one. It works but you need good backup at the tail end of the cut if you want to avoid spelching, though that doesn't apply if you're doing four shouldered tenons of course.

[thatsnotafestool]

What's wrong with a good tenon saw or a Japanese saw? Problems cutting vertically? I cheat and use one of these.....

and no, I don't use a hard-point saw for my tenons.

A tablesaw is not a suitable tool for cutting tenons, .

Is that from a safety perspective, Davy? Steve Maskery's jig addresses that. I have a sliding table on my table saw and with a fine tooth cross-cut blade have been doing my shoulders quite happily and with good results. The sliding table means that my digits are well away from the blade.

Personally, I would always recommend using the bandsaw for cutting the cheeks and then a safer alternative for the shoulders would be to cut them by hand, with a mitre saw with depth stop or a radial arm saw.

A mitre saw with a depth stop only works if it's the type that has the trenching facility. My DW mitre saw has a depth stop but still cuts at an angle and so is NBG for this.

I personally use the spindle moulder, but before I had that I always cut the cheeks on the bandsaw and the shoulders by hand.

What SM have you got, Davy? I agree that it is ideal. Problem I have with mine is getting the shoulders using the sliding table to be exactly at 90 degrees.

[mattty]

A mitre saw with a depth stop only works if it's the type that has the trenching facility. My DW mitre saw has a depth stop but still cuts at an angle and so is NBG for this.

Roger the trick with the mitre saw is to put/use a false fence. This sends the workpiece far enough away and produces a square parallel cut. Unless you mean the saw head travel isn't travelling parallel to the bed in which case i cant help

[Mr Ed]

I just watched Steve Maskreys youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XXftwAS ... re=related that Roger referred to. Its basically the same method as I do now for the shoulders, except with a piece of perspex in place as a guard.

[thatsnotafestool]

A mitre saw with a depth stop only works if it's the type that has the trenching facility. My DW mitre saw has a depth stop but still cuts at an angle and so is NBG for this.

Roger the trick with the mitre saw is to put/use a false fence. This sends the workpiece far enough away and produces a square parallel cut. Unless you mean the saw head travel isn't travelling parallel to the bed in which case i cant help

It's the latter, Matt. I went through all sorts of Heath Robinson ideas such as tilted supports but nothing made sense or was safe enough. A decent mitre saw that has a parallel path is on my wanted list.

[davyowen]

Roger, it is primarily from a safety point of view, but also because a tablesaw is, and always has been, designed for making through-cuts. If you need to build a jig to perform a cut, then you are probably using the wrong tool to begin with. If you have to remove the riving knife and blade guard to perform a cut, you are definitely using the wrong tool.

I know that having a sliding table keeps your hands away from the blade most of the time, but the blade is still exposed and it only takes a moment to lose concentration and because 80% of the blade is hidden below the table you move to pick up that offcut and get far more than you expected. Whether Steve's jig remedies that particular problem I don't know, but the point still stands in regards other jigs in general.

Now I don't expect everyone to stop doing it, because I am realistic enough to know that not everyone has all the tools and machines to perform every task in the most efficient and safe fashion, and that they will find the best method using what they have, but I still feel it is appropriate to point out that it isn't the 'proper' way to do it (even if it is the way Norm does it ), and it certainly isn't the safest. And for non-production runs, you aren't going to spend much more time cutting the shoulders by hand by the time you factor in setup times etc.

Regarding my SM, I have the Felder KF700S Pro (its a saw/spindle combination machine) and I have no problem with the shoulders not being square...

[Mr Ed]

I agree with your comments on safety Davy, which is the primary reason I'm looking to change my method. If for convenience alone, removing the riving knife/guard is a hassle, but the spin off from that is there is then a temptation to leave it off for later cuts if one was being lazy.

A spindle is not a goer for me at the moment, but I wonder if a router table alternative could come close-ish.

Ed

[jfc]

Some people cut the top of the riving knife so it doesnt need to be removed

[Mr Ed]

Some people cut the top of the riving knife so it doesnt need to be removed

Yes, I know, I had considered making an amended knife for my saw. If I just cut the top off the one I have there would be no mounting for the guard. Seeing the results of Karls amended riving knife does put me off that approach though. Also, making it easier to remove the crown guard is probably not a good way to encourage one to work safely.

[roger&out]

I don't like the look of those tenoning jigs & I'm a bit surprised that they can be legally sold. With them, you start & finish with an exposed blade, which has to be bad. Very bad. I suspect that they were invented in the Wild West of America, which is also where I suspect the term 'tablesaw' came from. Hasn't a bandsaw got a table? We don't call that a tablesaw, do we? What happened to the circular sawbench, a far more explicit term?

[stevep]

A tablesaw is not a suitable tool for cutting tenons

I agree, and not just from a safety point of view. With all the blades I've tried it just doesn't seem to cut correctly, and you only have to look at the sawdust it creates - long stringy shavings instead of fine chips which fill the gullet very quickly. It's not the same as a conventional rip cut, and takes a lot of power to cut a deep tenon in a wide rail. Maybe there's a way of grinding the teeth that make it work better, but that doesn't solve the guarding issue.
Bandsaw for the cheeks and RAS for the shoulders is my way. Or a router table for very small tenons if I'm being really fussy or need a scribe.

[thatsnotafestool]

Steve Maskery's jig guards the blade very well ..so no issues on that score. Guess I'm lucky with my table saw as the riving knife is designed to be not quite to the top of the blade and so all I have to do is remove the guard....and very easy to replace. There is the overhead in replacing the blade with a nice cross-cut blade.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that a table saw is the best way but I do think it's better than trying to fight a long bit of stock across a router table....or a spindle moulder. The mitre saw is best for long stock, I reckon. Or a hand saw.

[modernist]

Several thoughts from all the above

Any sliding table must by definition give a cut parallel to the slide guide. To make a square shoulder therefore only requires the fence to be at rt angles to the table.

Most bandsaws do a good job on cheeks

In my case the Hammer riving knife lowers under the crown of the blade. I would never consider using a table saw without a riving knife.

SMS or table saw for shoulders, or, of course a tenon saw.

A recessed head spindle block can cut excellent tenons with backing to prevent spelching.

[jake]

There is the overhead in replacing the blade with a nice cross-cut blade

It isn't a cross-cut though - it's a rip (at an unusual angle)- isn't it?

[thatsnotafestool]

There is the overhead in replacing the blade with a nice cross-cut blade

It isn't a cross-cut though - it's a rip (at an unusual angle)- isn't it?

No, it's a cross-cut unless we're talking about different cuts.

[hunggaur]

aaaa

[thatsnotafestool]

I don't like the look of those tenoning jigs & I'm a bit surprised that they can be legally sold. .....?

What? Like this one ?

[roger&out]

That's a rip cut (photo above). But look at the blade exposure - which is even worse after the cut! You don't need a riving knife for that cut though - the work's not going to pinch the blade.

[hunggaur]

AAAAA

[jfc]

Its crap and unsafe . Take yer jig and do one

[Mr Ed]

In any case, that jig and Steve M's for that matter are for cutting the cheeks, which in my view is best done on the bandsaw.

My question was really on methods for making the shoulder cuts. With some processes the machining operation does both (i.e. spindle, tenoner etc) which is fine, but I was not really looking for a new way to do the cheeks alone, just a safer way of forming a crisp shoulder. Quite a few people answered that question, so thanks for the input so far.

Ed

[woodsmith]

These jigs are a bloody dangerous and the manufacturers know it, they even state in the instructions that the crown guard should not be removed, so how are you supposed to use it?

[toolsntat]

For a good while when working at a place making conservatories the simple set up was to shoulder cut on the radial arm and then cheek em on the table saw with the piece lifted up and pointed at the arbour of the blade...

As long as the grain was straight enough (meranti), when the saw was busy and the tenons had been gauged after shouldering a quick thwack on the end grain was enough as a rule to cheek em

No , they never had a tennoner

Andy

[roger&out]

Gordon Bennett. Talk about quality!

[mr clewlow]

i ued to do the same as you mate. then had enough and bought a tenonner, work is a lot easier now and quicker. not to mention safer.

i would take the advice on board ref the unguarded blade!....................................................


if you are cutting a lot of tenons? buy the correct machine and DO NOT IMPROVISE.

[thatsnotafestool]

If you read this courtesy of davy, there's a lot can go wrong!

[Brad Naylor]

How long tenons do you need to do Ed?

I only do cabinet doors, so 25mm is more than enough for me. I just use a rebate block on the spindle and make a pass on each face to give a tenon. It works perfectly and I see no need to upgrade to a tenoning block. Much the same thing can be done on a router table but it can get a bit hairy with hardwoods.

Having seen your very impressive shop tour I'm surprised you haven't got a spindle moulder. I'd be putting one at the top of my 'want' list. £400-500 would get you sorted nicely...




...until you start buying tooling, of course!

[Mr Ed]

A spindle is on the list, but then so are many other things! Its something that will have to wait until I have the ground floor part of my workshop cleared and in use as I cannot have any more cast iron on the first floor. In the meantime I think I will get a specific cutter for the router table and then at least I can use basically the same method that would be employed with the spindle, without the weight and expense.

Ed

[mattty]

A spindle is on the list, but then so are many other things! Its something that will have to wait until I have the ground floor part of my workshop cleared and in use as I cannot have any more cast iron on the first floor. In the meantime I think I will get a specific cutter for the router table and then at least I can use basically the same method that would be employed with the spindle, without the weight and expense.

Ed

Dominos aren't heavy...

[thatsnotafestool]

A spindle is on the list, but then so are many other things! Its something that will have to wait until I have the ground floor part of my workshop cleared and in use as I cannot have any more cast iron on the first floor. In the meantime I think I will get a specific cutter for the router table and then at least I can use basically the same method that would be employed with the spindle, without the weight and expense.

Ed

Dominos aren't heavy...

But they're no good for external doors though !

[Mr Ed]

A spindle is on the list, but then so are many other things! Its something that will have to wait until I have the ground floor part of my workshop cleared and in use as I cannot have any more cast iron on the first floor. In the meantime I think I will get a specific cutter for the router table and then at least I can use basically the same method that would be employed with the spindle, without the weight and expense.

Ed

Dominos aren't heavy...

Now what would I want a Domino for....actually there are a number of things I want one for, but not enough to justify the expense at the moment. It seems that you could get a serviceable spindle for around the same money as one though, in which case the spindle would seem a far more versatile use of limited capital when I have some to spend.....when.

Ed

[gazza]

Does anyone have experience of the tenoning cutter that CMT make as a kind of poor mans alternative to a spindle

Hiya Ed,

Sorry i have missed this (just back from a week in Turkey )

I have used this cutter and can confirm it does a really good job. When used with a groove cutter its great for cupboard doors ect, quick,easy and most importantly accurate


I now have a spindle moulder so was going to sell mine if your interested pm me.

A couple of pics, A few marks on the paint, but the cutters are mint. Really only used them for one job.









Cheers,
gazza.

[hunggaur]

Its crap and unsafe . Take yer jig and do one

having jsut join the forum it is nice to meet such warm and open people as yourself who are open to discussion and other points of view (i think not)

[cncpaul]

Its crap and unsafe . Take yer jig and do one

having jsut join the forum it is nice to meet such warm and open people as yourself who are open to discussion and other points of view (i think not)

Hi hunggaur,

Welcome............Don't worry about Jason

Its crap and unsafe . Take yer jig and do one

You got him on a good day

[jfc]

Its crap and unsafe . Take yer jig and do one

having jsut join the forum it is nice to meet such warm and open people as yourself who are open to discussion and other points of view (i think not)

Dont use the forum to try and sell dodgy jigs then

[Mr Ed]

Its crap and unsafe . Take yer jig and do one

having jsut join the forum it is nice to meet such warm and open people as yourself who are open to discussion and other points of view (i think not)

At the risk of re-living the debate thats thriving on UKW on this matter, although Jasons prose may be somewhat confrontational, his basic point is entirely correct insofar as;

a) Your only posts on this forum are to sell your product
and
b) To use this product you have to remove the CE marked guarding from the saw and make a cut across the top of the exposed blade which whilst widely done is not advisable practise. Even if you make some kind of box guard to retro fit to this product, you then have an unguarded saw in the workshop and the likelihood that it will continue to get used unguarded for other operations before someone gets round to replacing the guard is high.

Whilst hobbyists can choose to ignore HSE guidance on working practices, I take the view that it is advisable to try and work to the same standards as a professional workshop, which I don't believe is supported by this product.

Ed