Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

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Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby mrgrimsdale » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:00 pm

Looking at Derek's jig I was reminded of the Grimsdale Mk 1 so I thought I'd post it up. I meant to develop it more and do some better snaps but I can't be bothered.
I needed to grind/hone a crappy block plane edge and it's a lot easier by hand with the help of a little handle - you can get more pressure on it and it's much faster. You can see how crap the blade is, but improving.
This handle took a few minutes to make from a bit of scrap, but this time I added a "nose". ImageImage
The end of the nose just clears the blade edge at an angle of 30 degrees
Image
So you can only hone at 30 degrees or under
Image
You can see it better here
Image

It works like a dream. Fast and easy. Tilt it back to grind on a coarse stone, tilt it forwards to hone on a fine one. It produces a rounded bevel with an edge precisely limited to 30 (or however you set it). For those who can't understand that concept it can produce a flat bevel, but there is no particular point in that.

I wondered about developing it. You could add wheels at the front (front wheel drive) and a bit of adjustment in the blade holding. It wants to be quick and easy so the slot is good, but perhaps a magnet or something, so it'd sit on top of a chisel. But it's good enough as it is, and I can just knock up another one for a different blade/angle etc.

In principle it solves all the problems associated with conventional jigs, and also can be used on any medium, scary sharp etc.

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Re: Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby senior » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:28 pm

Looks like your blade is completely pissed, do you have a stick for 90deg.
As for the hands......
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Re: Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby andrewking » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:33 pm

1st immediate drawback i can see is you then have to take it out of the stick to turn it over and work the wire edge back over, then back in the stick, couple of rubs, take out, repeat etc...
That would be a complete pain in the ar*e for me!

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Re: Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby mrgrimsdale » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:41 pm

andrewking wrote:1st immediate drawback i can see is you then have to take it out of the stick to turn it over and work the wire edge back over, then back in the stick, couple of rubs, take out, repeat etc...
That would be a complete pain in the ar*e for me!
Ist big advantage - it's only a loose fit so you can drop it out easily to turn over for taking off the wire edge. And drop it back in, no fiddling about with screws/clamps etc.
Try it, it works.
BTW it's only a rough prototype - all sorts of refinements could be added (brass knobs?), it's the principle that counts.

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Re: Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby mrgrimsdale » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:42 pm

senior wrote:Looks like your blade is completely pissed, do you have a stick for 90deg.
As for the hands......

It was pissed. That's what I said.
The hands? It was Mrs G doing the demo. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby senior » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:49 pm

mrgrimsdale wrote:
senior wrote:Looks like your blade is completely pissed, do you have a stick for 90deg.
As for the hands......

It was pissed. That's what I said.
The hands? It was Mrs G doing the demo. :lol: :lol: :lol:


Sorry, I don't actually read what you post anymore as I have read the same old shite over and over, I sort of scan it now and look for the bits I can take the p*ss on.

Saw a lovely skip this week outside a nursing home full of soiled matresses and old pissed on carpets, bye heck you could have made use of that lot.
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Re: Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby mrgrimsdale » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:58 pm

senior wrote:...Saw a lovely skip this week outside a nursing home ...
Is that where you live then? Were you all fighting over the skip stuff? :lol: :lol:

I have read the same old shite over and over
Nah this is a world premier of brand new shite!

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Re: Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby andrewking » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:59 pm

mrgrimsdale wrote:Try it, it works.
BTW it's only a rough prototype - all sorts of refinements could be added (brass knobs?), it's the principle that counts.

But I don't need to, I can freehand hone without it, so what's the point?
Too much work and faffing around involved in even a loose fit in a bit of stick, which is the point you often make about others reliant on jigs... :roll:

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Re: Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby mrgrimsdale » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:17 pm

andrewking wrote:
mrgrimsdale wrote:Try it, it works.
BTW it's only a rough prototype - all sorts of refinements could be added (brass knobs?), it's the principle that counts.

But I don't need to, I can freehand hone without it, so what's the point?
Too much work and faffing around involved in even a loose fit in a bit of stick, which is the point you often make about others reliant on jigs... :roll:

Don't worry - you don't have to use it if you don't want to. :lol:
I don't bother either - but it does work really well if you need it.

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Re: Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby derekcohen » Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:47 am

Hi Jacob

Actually I think your idea has merit - I wouldn't want to try it on my waterstones, but ..

A modification would be to attach the blade with rare earth magnets. Then you could easily detach the blade to remove the wire edge as you work, and return it to the original setting (just add a stop).

Regards from Perth

Derek
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Re: Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby mrgrimsdale » Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:42 am

derekcohen wrote:Hi Jacob

Actually I think your idea has merit - I wouldn't want to try it on my waterstones, but ..
Well it does actually work, which is nine tenths of the battle!
Water stones too soft I guess, you'd have to be too cautious.

A modification would be to attach the blade with rare earth magnets. Then you could easily detach the blade to remove the wire edge as you work, and return it to the original setting (just add a stop)....
Yes I had thought along those lines though it stays in place fairly well already by virtue of the downwards pressure in use.
Have a go and work up a Mk 2! Feel free - I see it as "open source gadget share-ware" :lol:

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Re: Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby derekcohen » Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:01 am

Have a go and work up a Mk 2! Feel free - I see it as "open source gadget ware"


Well Jacob, it's been done before. That's why I could make the suggestion I did.

I needed to come up with a strategy to hone the tiny blades of the Blum planes I had for review a year ago. Here one is alongside a 1/4" thick HNT Gordon iron ...

Image

And here it is in the plane (with its thick, special frog) ..

Image

Now while I could freehand these successfully, I recognised that not many others would be able to replicate this (nor want to!), so I searched for an easier method. What I came up with was to use the Veritas Small Blade Holder ...

Image

... and keep it set up in an old Veritas Honing Guide Mk I ...

Image

Image

This worked superbly. I could whip the blade off in a second to remove the wire edge before moving to the next stone. In all, this method is probably the fastest I have been able to hone any blade in any method (and I am acceptably competent in most).

Review at: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Blumplanereview-SmootherandForePlanes.html

Regards from Perth

Derek
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Re: Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby matthewwh » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:16 pm

Why remove the wire edge between stones?

It will drift off by itself when you move to the next stone and be replaced by a finer one. as long as you remember to flick it out of the way and don't run over it with the next stroke you can avoid the extra step.

Glad to see you are swinging back towards honing guides Mr G !!!

Cheers,

Matthew

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Re: Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby mrgrimsdale » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:40 pm

Not so much a guide - more of a small blade holding handle.
The angle setting detail is just for the fainthearted who have convinced themselves that they can't get a 30 deg angle freehand! True it does take a bit of effort, but 20 minutes practice is usually enough.

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Re: Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby derekcohen » Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:50 am

Why remove the wire edge between stones?

It will drift off by itself when you move to the next stone and be replaced by a finer one. as long as you remember to flick it out of the way and don't run over it with the next stroke you can avoid the extra step.


Hi Matthew

I mainly hone blades freehand - unless I am honing a BU plane blade, in which case I will use a honing guide. Even so, you can (should?) use a honing guide as if you were freehanding. It is all in the mindset.

When honing an edge I want to know what is going on. The wire edge hold important information. As I hone I can tell when I have worked across the bevel to the back of the blade. If I do not have a wire edge, then I know I have not done so. Perhaps the back of the blade is not flat? Removing the wire edge (only ever on your finishing stone) allows you to "read" the next stage in sharpening. Creating a camber? You want to feel how much is coming off the edge, and where. The wire edge tells you.

Regards from Perth

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Re: Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby modernist » Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:11 am

derekcohen wrote: Removing the wire edge (only ever on your finishing stone) allows you to "read" the next stage in sharpening. Creating a camber? You want to feel how much is coming off the edge, and where. The wire edge tells you.

Regards from Perth

Derek


Interesting stuff. It is also where problems can arise if you are a fan of the "ruler trick" because you need to take that into account when removing the burr.
Cheers

Brian


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Re: Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby mrgrimsdale » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:56 am

Grimtech Laboratories MKII jig

Came about because of this thread viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3698 and a pitted plane blade.

A piece of 1x2" from the firewood box (pallet - seems to be ramin?) left rough on one side for grip. 2 holes drilled. One for a bolt the other for your knob.

Image

I've got a drawer full of oddshaped or mis-matched knobs, but anything would do. Ideally a large doorknob for a good ergonomic grip. Could be brass if that's what turns you on.
(Another of the many defects of conventional honing jigs is that they don't have convenient handles. Strange that they omit something so obvious - you've only got to look at a plane!)

It's a quick fit - the blade drops over the head and the nut only needs to be finger tight.
ImageImage

It works really well. Left or right handed, or both hands for maxi pressure. Suddenly a tedious job becomes easy. You can work through grit sizes as normal on stones, or emery paper etc. I started off with 80 grit paper but finished on a stone.
Image

The BIG advantage of freehand (or freehand plus handle) sharpening, is that you can exert as much pressure as you can muster, and move the blade at speed over the whole length and width of the medium. These snaps posed a bit, but at normal shutter speed they'd be blurred by the speed!
This obviously makes it faster. Less obviously but more importantly - it means you can use finer grits effectively. Finer means sharper.

So after flattening the face you just flip the blade over and hone the edge:
Image

Having a good grip sited directly over the part being flattened or honed gives much better control and a much more consistent edge. When honing (not flattening), the longer the handle the easier it is to control the angle, if for instance you only like specific flat bevels for some reason. I know they are the fashion nowadays.
When flattening the downwards pressure keeps the action as flat as the stone or other medium, e.g. emery paper on the end of a PT bed, stuck down and lubricated with white spirit. Holds the paper in place surprisingly well.

Could have added the Mk I angle defining nose, but it's not really necessary (except for freehand honing beginners perhaps).

PS I finish off with the blade out of the jig, for a final few light passes and turns to remove the wire edge.

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Re: Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby engineerone » Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:08 pm

i could of sworn that at another time, you had stated quite categorically that flattening the face was an unnecessary activity :?


but of more importance, it is still a f***ing JIG :twisted:
paul ;)

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Re: Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby mrgrimsdale » Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:22 pm

engineerone wrote:i could of sworn that at another time, you had stated quite categorically that flattening the face was an unnecessary activity :?
More an obsessively severely overdone activity. I had to on this blade because of the pits. It was the pits. Anyway I can change my mind.

but of more importance, it is still a f***ing JIG :twisted:
paul ;)
Yebbut it's a freehand convex bevel jig with knobs on. I should have put a brass one on, that'd convince everybody.

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Re: Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby engineerone » Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:58 pm

so you are allowed to change your mind, but others not :?

and because it is a piece of scrap, it is not the same as using a commercial jig :roll:

paul ;)

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Re: Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby mrgrimsdale » Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:04 pm

engineerone wrote:so you are allowed to change your mind, but others not :?
Please feel free to change your mind!

and because it is a piece of scrap, it is not the same as using a commercial jig :roll:

paul ;)
Correct. Not because it's a piece of scrap, but it is non-commercial. Feel free to copy it.
And it works better than any commercial jig I've seen. I have used the Stanley and the Eclipse but they are both crap. They all seem to struggle with the other designs so I presume they are crap too. And expensive!

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Re: Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby jfc » Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:59 pm

Jacob if you put the bolt either top or bottom of the slidy hole thing so its a referance point and cut your angle at the other end you could use it to home the blade and then flip it aroung to flatten the back . Then just flip it around back to the referance point to hone again .
You will need a brass knob to get this one off the ground though :D

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Re: Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby mrgrimsdale » Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:09 pm

Yes. Smart thinking! Actually there's room for several brass knobs.
It'll be the MK II deluxe. :lol:

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Re: Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby jfc » Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:13 pm

Might make one myself if it can be made to work that quick and cost sod all .

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Re: Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby mrgrimsdale » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:33 pm

jfc wrote:Might make one myself if it can be made to work that quick and cost sod all .
It takes 10 minutes to make and you need a nut & bolt and a big knob. Bigger that better (within reason). :shock:

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Re: Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby Blinker » Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:38 pm

I was 'aving a fink the other day.


There are probably more ways to sharpen than there are types of iron. yet I still can't see the point of getting a nice flat back on an iron, and then putting a steel rule under the back end of the iron to hone a 'micro-bevel' to turn it into a knife blade. D'you think the 'crappy work' our forefathers did, in the golden years of cabinetmaking was because they didn't know about this? Or maybe they did. Hmmmm !

Mordecai :)
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Re: Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby mrgrimsdale » Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:19 pm

Blinker wrote:I was 'aving a fink the other day.


There are probably more ways to sharpen than there are types of iron. yet I still can't see the point of getting a nice flat back on an iron, and then putting a steel rule under the back end of the iron to hone a 'micro-bevel' to turn it into a knife blade. D'you think the 'crappy work' our forefathers did, in the golden years of cabinetmaking was because they didn't know about this? Or maybe they did. Hmmmm !

Mordecai :)
I'm sure they did know. It's a quick n easy way of avoiding pits and other blemishes in a dodgy blade. Quite why you need a ruler for this has escaped me as it's perfectly easy to do freehand.

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Re: Grimsdale Mk. 1, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

Postby Blinker » Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:45 am

Never looked at it like that. I never heard it mentioned at all until I bought a woodworking magazine once. That's where I first saw it demonstrated.
Can't imagine why my woodwork schoolie never mentioned it.
Perhaps it's the old story.. 'I taught you everything you know, but I didn't teach you everything I know!' And I did notice he never used the 'issue' planes when he did his foreigners!

Cheers
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