Green woodwork

Discuss hand tools here, its quieter and less dusty than the other sections.
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mrgrimsdale
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Green woodwork

Post by mrgrimsdale » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:20 pm

This is what I've been doing today (last years course snaps).
Hard work with peculiar tools.

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Re: Green woodwork

Post by jake » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:23 pm

Nice hollow forms

mrgrimsdale
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Re: Green woodwork

Post by mrgrimsdale » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:28 pm

BOWLS.
Can't hand carve urns - you can't get your tool in.

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Re: Green woodwork

Post by jonnyd » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:29 pm

some good beards as well

cheers

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Re: Green woodwork

Post by jake » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:38 pm

It's definitely a form and it definitely isn't solid, it's been hollowed out. If that isn't a hollow form then nothing is.

mrgrimsdale
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Re: Green woodwork

Post by mrgrimsdale » Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:47 am

jake wrote:It's definitely a form and it definitely isn't solid, it's been hollowed out. If that isn't a hollow form then nothing is.
This is too. But I'm not making one of these. It wouldn't fit on the mantle-piece.

Image

Neepsend Gasometer, from Hoyland Road, Sheffield by Terry Robinson"
Copyright Terry Robinson and
licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence


This is strange. If you google hollow form images you get Japanese anime, Barbara Hepworth, and weird sci-fi wooden urn things like alien seed pods. Not a single gasometer.

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Re: Green woodwork

Post by woodpecker » Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:56 pm

mrgrimsdale wrote:Hard work with peculiar tools.
Then why do it? It would be much easier and quicker to make those objects with modern tools - even if you could find a reason for wanting the objects that is!!:roll:

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Re: Green woodwork

Post by Doug » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:43 pm

woodpecker wrote:
mrgrimsdale wrote:Hard work with peculiar tools.
Then why do it? It would be much easier and quicker to make those objects with modern tools - even if you could find a reason for wanting the objects that is!!:roll:

Richard

I for one would love to do a course with Robin, i went to a demonstration of his & he`s a very knowledgeable bloke who practices traditional crafts.
By running these courses he is keeping traditional crafts alive, which, though they may not be able to compete with modern mass-production, i feel these crafts should be kept going, even if it involves a bit of hard work.

More power to Robin`s & Jacob`s elbows :D


Doug.

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Re: Green woodwork

Post by mrgrimsdale » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:48 pm

woodpecker wrote:
mrgrimsdale wrote:Hard work with peculiar tools.
Then why do it? .......
Because I'm interested in woodwork. Aren't you?

Snap lifted from Robin Wood's site:

Image

Bowl is made from a half split log which fits (with a wedge) into the gap in the bowl horse in the photo. That accounts for the shape - it's not just a style, it's a trad way of doing it, though many other shapes are possible.

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Re: Green woodwork

Post by Mr Ed » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:42 pm

I understand Robin is a very knowledgeable bloke, so I'm sure it was a great day.

Based on the few bits i have tinkered with I think green woodwork can be satisfying and enjoyable. In addition to that, I reckon it provides some insights into the behaviour of wood as a material. Of course you can make things quicker with modern methods and materials, but that's not always the point.

Let's have a picture of your effort Jacob!

Ed.

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Re: Green woodwork

Post by mrgrimsdale » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:15 pm

Mr Ed wrote:.....
Let's have a picture of your effort Jacob!

Ed.
It's not very good but I was pleased with it - mainly because I was slowly getting the idea. As it gets thinner it gets easier to shape but there's less material to remove. :roll: Can be finished further when it's bit drier.
This is the other basic shape, half a log, bark side up. The one above is opposite, bark side down.
Doing another tomorrow.

Image

It's "greenwood" making i.e. only axe, push knife, gouge, spokeshave. In the worshop with a bit more kit it'd be easier. Bandsaw for starters.

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Re: Green woodwork

Post by Mr Ed » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:21 pm

Looks alright for a first effort.

What tools are used in the making? I assume basic shape with axe then refined with curved knives?

Ed

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Re: Green woodwork

Post by mrgrimsdale » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:31 pm

Mr Ed wrote:...... I reckon it provides some insights into the behaviour of wood as a material......
Yes. And design - this stuff basically scandinavian (Wille Sundqvist) but what struck me, looking at the books, other bits n bobs like spoons, spatulas, whittled or spoke-shaved shapes, was the very "Scandinavian" style of end product - similar shapes in posh Danish furniture, Wegner etc, and natural materials like rush bottom chairs. Top end design linking back to green woodwork.

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Re: Green woodwork

Post by jake » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:34 pm

There was a lot of modernist scandi stainless steel stuff in those two shapes - serving dishes etc

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Re: Green woodwork

Post by modernist » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:07 am

Getting better by the minute
Cheers

Brian


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Re: Green woodwork

Post by mrgrimsdale » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:54 pm

It seems it's partly or mainly down to"Sloyd", which accounts for the survival of crafts in Scandinavia (and USA).
But we had William Morris - basically a disaster in craft terms as he was fairly blind and insensitive to the vernacular of his time and instead referred back to a mythical romantic age involving oak and Elizabethan or earlier things. Turned crafts into middle class recreation.
Perhaps Ray Mears is the Morris antidote!

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Re: Green woodwork

Post by modernist » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:23 pm

mrgrimsdale wrote:It seems it's partly or mainly down to"Sloyd", which accounts for the survival of crafts in Scandinavia (and USA).
But we had William Morris - basically a disaster in craft terms as he was fairly blind and insensitive to the vernacular of his time and instead referred back to a mythical romantic age involving oak and Elizabethan or earlier things. Turned crafts into middle class recreation.
Perhaps Ray Mears is the Morris antidote!
I'm not a great fan of A & C but you can hardly say Morris was "insensitive to the vernacular of his time" when his cohorts produced hay rake stretchers and the like.
Cheers

Brian


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Re: Green woodwork

Post by mrgrimsdale » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:44 am

modernist wrote:
mrgrimsdale wrote:It seems it's partly or mainly down to"Sloyd", which accounts for the survival of crafts in Scandinavia (and USA).
But we had William Morris - basically a disaster in craft terms as he was fairly blind and insensitive to the vernacular of his time and instead referred back to a mythical romantic age involving oak and Elizabethan or earlier things. Turned crafts into middle class recreation.
Perhaps Ray Mears is the Morris antidote!
I'm not a great fan of A & C but you can hardly say Morris was "insensitive to the vernacular of his time" when his cohorts produced hay rake stretchers and the like.
Exactly what I mean. They romanticised about the simple life and stylised their stuff accordingly, but wouldn't have taken much interest in the making of hay rakes themselves.

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Re: Green woodwork

Post by modernist » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:56 am

mrgrimsdale wrote:
modernist wrote:
mrgrimsdale wrote:It seems it's partly or mainly down to"Sloyd", which accounts for the survival of crafts in Scandinavia (and USA).
But we had William Morris - basically a disaster in craft terms as he was fairly blind and insensitive to the vernacular of his time and instead referred back to a mythical romantic age involving oak and Elizabethan or earlier things. Turned crafts into middle class recreation.
Perhaps Ray Mears is the Morris antidote!
I'm not a great fan of A & C but you can hardly say Morris was "insensitive to the vernacular of his time" when his cohorts produced hay rake stretchers and the like.
Exactly what I mean. They romanticised about the simple life and stylised their stuff accordingly, but wouldn't have taken much interest in the making of hay rakes themselves.
I think drawing from loosely associated source areas is a standard design practice. As furniture makers is it so surprising they might not be into making rakes?
Cheers

Brian


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Re: Green woodwork

Post by mrgrimsdale » Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:14 am

modernist wrote:I think drawing from loosely associated source areas is a standard design practice. As furniture makers is it so surprising they might not be into making rakes?
What is surprising is that as craft revivalists they didn't go into rake (etc) making and vernacular furniture. "Arts n Crafts" became semi detached from the real world of useful things being made from wood.
I think they set up a strong negative tradition which is still with us.
It struck me first in the building renovations trade where anybody with a newly acquired old building would immediately set about removing and destroying every vestige of the vernacular and replacing it with an imaginary equivalent. I've even seen false half-timber framing put up on interior walls of stone cottages. Interior pointed stone walls instead of thick and insulating lime plaster are common. Or disney gnome style stone inglenook fireplaces covering an interesting original (if they haven't hacked it out!).

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Re: Green woodwork

Post by modernist » Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:56 am

mrgrimsdale wrote:
modernist wrote:I think drawing from loosely associated source areas is a standard design practice. As furniture makers is it so surprising they might not be into making rakes?
What is surprising is that as craft revivalists they didn't go into rake (etc) making and vernacular furniture. "Arts n Crafts" became semi detached from the real world of useful things being made from wood.
I think they set up a strong negative tradition which is still with us.
It struck me first in the building renovations trade where anybody with a newly acquired old building would immediately set about removing and destroying every vestige of the vernacular and replacing it with an imaginary equivalent. I've even seen false half-timber framing put up on interior walls of stone cottages. Interior pointed stone walls instead of thick and insulating lime plaster are common. Or disney gnome style stone inglenook fireplaces covering an interesting original (if they haven't hacked it out!).
I do think you can trace back several arguably negative trends to A & C. Toolyism is perhaps one and I know for a fact that Barnsley's dictated sharpening your No7 after every 6 shavings. Then of course he was famous for travelling around with a block plane in his pocket relieving stuck drawers.

Re hay rake you could argue that it was fit for purpose as a stretcher as it had been originally conceived for resisting racking which is precisely what is required of table stretchers.

I agree about false tradition. I could take you to a 60's semi in Allestree with Jacobean oak beams nailed to the joists and walls :twisted: :twisted: I think it is also a question of educated taste, or the lack of.

My pet hate is A & C octagonal panels, posts et al. Octagons result from chamfered squares and are therefore easy, but are aesthetically appalling.

Must press on. Off to install a wood (offcut) burner in the hall to waft free heat around the house. :D
Cheers

Brian


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Re: Green woodwork

Post by modernist » Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:22 pm

Re hay rake there is, coincidentally, a thread on the shaven and also FWW on the same subject. The FWW project is OK but the example in their gallery is far too heavy. Also I think the end stretcher would be better straight than curved, at least for structural reasons. IIRC the Barnsley version did have straight end stretchers.
Cheers

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Re: Green woodwork

Post by steve tomlin » Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:07 am

Hi,
I'm new to this forum but interested in your discussion of green woodwork. I'm a green woodworker and carve bowls like the ones mrgrimsdale made with my friend Robin Wood. Sure, working by hand is more work that using machines but a lot of that is compensated for by working with the wood when it is still fresh and cuts easily. A lot of green woodworking is about understanding the timber, different species for different things and different states of green-ness too.
I really enjoy working in this way, up close and personal with the tools and materials.

Here's a couple of my bowls, both carved from beech.
Image Image
modernist wrote:Re hay rake there is, coincidentally, a thread on the shaven and also FWW on the same subject
can you tell me where to find these threads - I'm a hay rake maker too and interested in what other folk do.#

Steve

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Re: Green woodwork

Post by Tim Nott » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:47 am

David Pye made beautifull carved fluted bowls with a gouge and jig. http://www.amazon.com/Nature-Art-Workma ... 0964399903" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And Alan Peter's table bowls were hand carved just with a gouge and mallet http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2 ... s-obituary" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm about as much use with a gouge as Lady Gaga

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Re: Green woodwork

Post by mrgrimsdale » Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:31 am

steve tomlin wrote:Hi,
I'm new to this forum but interested in your discussion of green woodwork. I'm a green woodworker and carve bowls like the ones mrgrimsdale made with my friend Robin Wood. Sure, working by hand is more work that using machines but a lot of that is compensated for by working with the wood when it is still fresh and cuts easily. A lot of green woodworking is about understanding the timber, different species for different things and different states of green-ness too.
I really enjoy working in this way, up close and personal with the tools and materials.

Here's a couple of my bowls, both carved from beech.
[img]...[/img] [img]...[/img]
modernist wrote:Re hay rake there is, coincidentally, a thread on the shaven and also FWW on the same subject
can you tell me where to find these threads - I'm a hay rake maker too and interested in what other folk do.#

Steve
Nice bowls. Mine are similar except they have grapefruit in at the moment but bananas are a good fit in the longer one!

You may not find the hay rake threads very interesting as they have absolutely f.a. to do with actual hay rakes. They are about a particularly clumsy bit of arts n crafts furniture styling - lots of examples here.

Similarly - re Alan Peter's bowl, interesting though jt is (and a very labour intensive, possibly pointless, copy of D Pye's idea), like the rest of the A&C players he was probably fairly ignorant of vernacular real things, which have been shoved into the background in Britain, for various historical reasons.

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Re: Green woodwork

Post by Chataigner » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:07 pm

Just found this thread which contains stuff from ages ago - and, unprecedented event, find I agree with Jacob on something. :roll: :lol:

Namely, that in terms of their own philosophy, A&C failed. Their version of "back to craft origins" produced highly refined, very expensive goodies for the rich and famous. That being said, I happen to like a lot of A&C design, especially Rennie Mackintosh, and just ignore the philosophical origins. After all, without "sponsorship" by royalty and others with money, most art would never have been produced.
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