That Table saw question again

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HexusOdy
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That Table saw question again

Post by HexusOdy » Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:49 pm

Through the power of Google I've seen the question has been asked many times on here. These Being spread over many years I'd thought I'd ask the question again.

I'm not lazy, I've done a lot of research here and elsewhere on what is available but the problem I'm having is finding exactly what I want. Which is pretty simple really. Portable (from my garage to outside), quiet, accurate, good fence, decent width.

Let's rule out all sub £200 saws with brush motors that fail in all respects except portability. And I have to rule out anything significantly more than £300, and anything large and heavy.

What seems to be left has mixed reviews. Various Scheppach, Charnwood, even the Axminster TS200 once stand and extensions are added is close to £350 with some people criticising the fence.

One thing that really surprises me across the whole price range is the general criticism of stock fences, which to me just seems that should be basically right on any table saw. If I'm to spend £300 on anything I don't want to have to throw a part away and spend another £70.

The only machine I could find that is closest to what I want is this Ridgid saw below which is US only of course. They call if a hybrid saw as somewhere between a cabinet and contractors saw. Would be about £320 in our money which is about half the price of similar here of course. Generally has great reviews.

https://www.ridgid.com/us/en/10-inch-ca ... -table-saw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Any thoughts on what I should go for?

ondablade
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Re: That Table saw question again

Post by ondablade » Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:36 pm

I can't help directly, but it seems to me that a lot depends on what you are looking for in a saw.

The problem is basically the price point. Even spending heading for 10 times that amount only gets you into what is still very much the lower end of what might be called a professional quality saw.

It seems inevitable that no matter which you buy it has to be fairly heavily compromised - and fairly limited in terms of capability. My instincts would be to do all the research you can, and then if it still sounds like it will do what you need go for something and hope for the best. Rigid does seem to get a good press in the US at this level.

What about buying something to a higher spec but used?

mickthetree
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Re: That Table saw question again

Post by mickthetree » Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:42 pm

what about a track saw?

Sorry I know thats over your budget but it should be a serious consideration if portability is high on your agenda.

Otherwise I'd suggets you look to second hand. I just sold a kity 419 (the axy ts-200 is a direct clone of this). A very capable 8" saw that you could get second hand for within your budget.

What are you planning on cutting? how much and how often?

HexusOdy
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Re: That Table saw question again

Post by HexusOdy » Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:21 pm

Usage wise, It's very much hobbyist / DIY level work. Partly used for work I still have to do for an ongoing home restoration, and when thats done eating my spare time I want to make basic furniture, some outdoor play equipment for my girl.

I'm not realistically going to be cutting large amounts of 8 x 4 sheet material which is why I don't feel a plunge saw is the right way to go, and if I need to do that I have a very good Panasonic cordless circular saw and a couple of straight edges I have used well before to resize sheets. I would like a table saw to more easily rip longer narrow stock for making doors, building built in cabinets, shelving and the like. Generally 1 x 4, 2 x 4 softwood although there will be some plywood in there too.

Realistically in the near future thats what it is going to be used for. I am very tempted still to get a 2nd hand Triton Workcentre because I'm a sucker for multipurpose kit and good design, and well it has its shortcomings most people would have to admit it's well designed bit of kit. But my circular saw is cordless and it needs corded which is more cost, and increased noise over an induction motor.

As a newcomer to table saws I think what surprises me the most is the general opinion that anything under £400 is pretty crap, which is a lot of money for anything. Certainly alot of money for something that has one purpose and doesn't seem to do it well unless your spending £600+. Especially if you consider what your paying for. Generally in this price range some pressed steel or aluminium, a 1500w motor tied to a blade, some guides and some aluminium fences. When you bare in mind that these saws don't change very year, I can see many for sale now that were for sale 4-5 years ago, so nobody is putting a ton of money into R&D or new tooling. Frankly I look at many of these machines in this sub £600 range and think they are grossly overpriced for what they are. When you look at something like the Ridgid in the US retail for sub £350 which looks like its been properly engineered, not just taken a bench top saw, stuck some steel legs and a couple of steel side extensions on and put a £400 price tag on it.

I guess my issue is that I'm struggling to find any value in a modern Table saw as they seem to be overpriced and not generally well built, finding value is the task at hand it seems. I reckon there is a huge amount of room for someone to own this hobbyist sector of the market and do a cracking machine at £299 all in.

thatsnotafestool
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Re: That Table saw question again

Post by thatsnotafestool » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:16 pm

HexusOdy wrote:.....
One thing that really surprises me across the whole price range is the general criticism of stock fences, which to me just seems that should be basically right on any table saw......
Why are you surprised? You get what you pay for. Seems to me you have a big 'ask' at that price point.
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
Friedrich Nietzsche

HexusOdy
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Re: That Table saw question again

Post by HexusOdy » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:27 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
HexusOdy wrote:.....
One thing that really surprises me across the whole price range is the general criticism of stock fences, which to me just seems that should be basically right on any table saw......
Why are you surprised? You get what you pay for. Seems to me you have a big 'ask' at that price point.
I think there are features in anything that should cost more. In the case of a table saw I'd say motor type, depth of cut, maximum width of cut, power, cast iron over aluminium, build quality and I'm sure plenty more and then you get into the superior engineering of cabinet saws.

But surely any table saw over £250 should cut straight and accurate as a minimum? How hard can it be at that price range to have a straight fence that fits it's guide and doesn't deviate? But I've read so many reviews, even on axis about poor fences or on others about blades out of alignment and spending hours fettling to get them right.

If I buy a games console I expect the controller won't veer to the right, same if I buy a car. Just seems to me those things should be basic to any table saw.

thatsnotafestool
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Re: That Table saw question again

Post by thatsnotafestool » Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:46 am

It's basic economics. How many games consoles do you think are sold? Millions and millions. How many table saws of manufacturer X ? Thousands if you are lucky. So decent R&D and production can be amorised much easier on the games console.

A table saw costing £250 retail. Now what do you think the landed price is in the UK for that? Probably £150. Now the manufacturer wants to make a profit. Say £50. So actual production cost is £100. That's for labour and materials.

As I said, a big 'ask'.
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
Friedrich Nietzsche

HexusOdy
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Re: That Table saw question again

Post by HexusOdy » Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:40 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:It's basic economics. How many games consoles do you think are sold? Millions and millions. How many table saws of manufacturer X ? Thousands if you are lucky. So decent R&D and production can be amorised much easier on the games console.

A table saw costing £250 retail. Now what do you think the landed price is in the UK for that? Probably £150. Now the manufacturer wants to make a profit. Say £50. So actual production cost is £100. That's for labour and materials.

As I said, a big 'ask'.
What you say regarding consoles is true, far more are sold that table saws. But what has changed in table saw design in well, forever? A table saw today is generally same as a table saw 20 years ago, whereas console technology changes at a huge pace. As I said, there are quite a few on the market today that were on the market 5 years ago, and those are pretty much identical to its predecessor that was on sale for 5 years before that and many that are on the market are clones of each other. Indeed from what I have read here many people are buying 20, 30 or 40 year old table saws for better quality.

With no great invention going on anywhere else it just seems they could put some focus on making their guides and fences rock solid and their blades at 90 degrees. I'm not talking at the mass produced in China £250, but I've read many review on £400 tables saws that say throw the stock fence away and spend another £100. Which seems like a mickey take.

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Re: That Table saw question again

Post by mickthetree » Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:26 am

I think you have just answered your own question. The Axminster ts200 is 424 quid with quiet induction motor, rock solid fence, sliding table, leg stand and extension table.

Looks like Axminster has done everything you have suggested. Let us know when you've placed your order :-)

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Re: That Table saw question again

Post by The Rusted Nail » Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:42 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:It's basic economics. How many games consoles do you think are sold? Millions and millions. How many table saws of manufacturer X ? Thousands if you are lucky. So decent R&D and production can be amorised much easier on the games console.

A table saw costing £250 retail. Now what do you think the landed price is in the UK for that? Probably £150. Now the manufacturer wants to make a profit. Say £50. So actual production cost is £100. That's for labour and materials.

As I said, a big 'ask'.
I couldn't agree more! I am afraid to say it's another situation of "Champagne, Lemonade"

Don't expect Champagne with Lemonade money, you would think getting the basics of cutting straight and fences not moving as a simple requirement. Just isn't the case.

To do anything with real precision you either have to increase your budget or look to buy quality second hand gear.

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Re: That Table saw question again

Post by jrm » Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:45 am

HexusOdy wrote:But what has changed in table saw design in well, forever? A table saw today is generally same as a table saw 20 years ago, whereas console technology changes at a huge pace.
Anybody who has followed this subject for many years knows that mid-range machines have become much cheaper with wider choice than ever before. But there is a limit. Your statement above is true. It is a superficially simple item. Unfortunately, engineering qualities such as 'flatness' and 'straightness' remain very expensive and all the more so the closer to the ideal you reach. Machines with sufficient mass, power and accuracy to do quality work will always be expensive but they are better value because you don't end up ruining a load of expensive wood and they retain better resale values. Personally, I would stretch the budget a bit for something like an old Startrite TS275 or Multico and put wheels on it.

John

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Re: That Table saw question again

Post by karl » Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:11 am

Kity 619 was on e-bay recently for £350. That seems like a lot of saw for the money.

Cheers

Karl

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Re: That Table saw question again

Post by woodsmith » Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:49 am

Unfortunately £250 is not enough to get even a half decent table saw, you can pay that much for an 18v drill, and you can spend £2000 on a saw and still not get a fantastic fence. If that is your budget then second hand is the way to go, I sold a decent Sheppach for about that money a few years ago. Otherwise, do you really need one because I wouldn't buy a cheap thing, it will be a waste of money?
Keith

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Re: That Table saw question again

Post by ace » Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:24 pm

What you say regarding consoles is true, far more are sold that table saws. But what has changed in table saw design in well, forever? A table saw today is generally same as a table saw 20 years ago, whereas console technology changes at a huge pace. As I said, there are quite a few on the market today that were on the market 5 years ago, and those are pretty much identical to its predecessor that was on sale for 5 years before that and many that are on the market are clones of each other. Indeed from what I have read here many people are buying 20, 30 or 40 year old table saws for better quality.

With no great invention going on anywhere else it just seems they could put some focus on making their guides and fences rock solid and their blades at 90 degrees. I'm not talking at the mass produced in China £250, but I've read many review on £400 tables saws that say throw the stock fence away and spend another £100. Which seems like a mickey take.
It would seem to me that you have spotted a gap in the market.

I think you should start marketing your own brand of saw. Cast iron top. Rock solid fence. Perfect alignment. Digital readout, possibly. Sliding table and mitre fence. Top grade materials. Induction motor with brake. £399.99 all in, retail.

Should be a winner.

You should clean up.

Let us know how it goes?

thatsnotafestool
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Re: That Table saw question again

Post by thatsnotafestool » Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:33 pm

ace wrote:
What you say regarding consoles is true, far more are sold that table saws. But what has changed in table saw design in well, forever? A table saw today is generally same as a table saw 20 years ago, whereas console technology changes at a huge pace. As I said, there are quite a few on the market today that were on the market 5 years ago, and those are pretty much identical to its predecessor that was on sale for 5 years before that and many that are on the market are clones of each other. Indeed from what I have read here many people are buying 20, 30 or 40 year old table saws for better quality.

With no great invention going on anywhere else it just seems they could put some focus on making their guides and fences rock solid and their blades at 90 degrees. I'm not talking at the mass produced in China £250, but I've read many review on £400 tables saws that say throw the stock fence away and spend another £100. Which seems like a mickey take.
It would seem to me that you have spotted a gap in the market.

I think you should start marketing your own brand of saw. Cast iron top. Rock solid fence. Perfect alignment. Digital readout, possibly. Sliding table and mitre fence. Top grade materials. Induction motor with brake. £399.99 all in, retail.

Should be a winner.

You should clean up.

Let us know how it goes?
Image
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
Friedrich Nietzsche

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Re: That Table saw question again

Post by wallace » Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:01 pm

I buy old machinery because its the only way to get the quality I want at the price of modern tin toy machinery. You can get a sawbench with a cast top, proper fence very cheap. Look for wadkin, sagar, smith, or the older startrite. You can change the motors on a lot of them. The wadkin I'm working on at the moment cost £330

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Re: That Table saw question again

Post by Maverick81 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:08 pm

woodsmith wrote:Unfortunately £250 is not enough to get even a half decent table saw,

£250 is not even enough to get a half decent table.........nevermind a table-saw. I have a 30yr old 3hp Luna. Very well engineered and once I cleaned it up and its an absolute animal and a joy to use.

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