CNC Building for woodwork

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CNC Building for woodwork

Post by Meccarroll » Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:26 am

Hi all I have been thinking about buying or building a CNC for woodwork and thought I'd see who was interested in the subject. Passing on information about builds and ready made machines?

Here is a link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlyxqoE ... I-&index=1 a Chap on Utube who bought a base machine then added the mechanical/electrical components himself. The build is broken into several parts so will take some time to watch all videos. The end machine looks the business for hobby or light trade use and that's what I'd like to end up with as a starter CNC.

Any thoughts or input welcome.

Mark

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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by mark270981 » Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:07 pm

As a CNc veteran

I am unsure on the accuracy of home built ones? But I do wish I had done that to start with as I would’ve learned more about the
.

Instead every call I out I have costs 800 quid - (we don’t have many to be fair)

Well worth it in my opinion as your starting point then you won’t get ripped off if you ever buy an industrial one
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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by thatsnotafestool » Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:36 pm

mark270981 wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:07 pm
As a CNc veteran

I am unsure on the accuracy of home built ones? But I do wish I had done that to start with as I would’ve learned more about the
.

Instead every call I out I have costs 800 quid - (we don’t have many to be fair)

Well worth it in my opinion as your starting point then you won’t get ripped off if you ever buy an industrial one
Hi Mark
IIRC you were going to set up to machine stuff for third parties. Did that ever happen ? Was it profitable ?
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
Friedrich Nietzsche

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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by Meccarroll » Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:43 pm

mark270981 wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:07 pm
As a CNc veteran

I am unsure on the accuracy of home built ones? But I do wish I had done that to start with as I would’ve learned more about the
.

Instead every call I out I have costs 800 quid - (we don’t have many to be fair)

Well worth it in my opinion as your starting point then you won’t get ripped off if you ever buy an industrial one

Thank's for the reply Mark, £800 is hefty..... for a call out!

I have been thinking about a CNC for a while now, at first I could not understand the workings at all but I am starting to. But I could still do with some help in any form from anyone that want's to input a comment!.

I recently made some 20mmx50mm wood beads for a curved window. The curve was large so I made them in three sections. The window that needed the beads had a constant radius (is was from a circle) but the actual window was not equal in height and width (so no obvious radious at first). To find out the radious I used my cad programme and input the height and then width and also the depth of the arc between both points (Depth of Arc between the height and width) and from that worked out the radius of the window using my CAD programme. I then took the measuments and used a router on a trammel to cut out a ply template using the radius obtained from the cad programme so I could machine the beads on my spindle moulder. I needed to roughhly shape the actual wood for the beads on a bandsaw before I could attacht the ply template and machine on the moulder, which did take a bit of time.

Just imagine if I had a CNC I could have gone straight from the cad drawing to machining the parts straight on a CNC saving some time!

At the moment I'm trying to understand the elements that make up the electrical components. There are lots of components but matching them correctly is a bit of a problem. It's doable but not easy so I'm torn between making my own CNC and just buying one. I'm currently thinking that it may be better to seek more advice as Mark has suggested as call outs can be costly!

Cheer to you Mark ;)

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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by thatsnotafestool » Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:52 pm

Meccarroll wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:43 pm
mark270981 wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:07 pm
As a CNc veteran

I am unsure on the accuracy of home built ones? But I do wish I had done that to start with as I would’ve learned more about the
.

Instead every call I out I have costs 800 quid - (we don’t have many to be fair)

Well worth it in my opinion as your starting point then you won’t get ripped off if you ever buy an industrial one

Thank's for the reply Mark, £800 is hefty..... for a call out!

I have been thinking about a CNC for a while now, at first I could not understand the workings at all but I am starting to. But I could still do with some help in any form from anyone that want's to input a comment!.

I recently made some 20mmx50mm wood beads for a curved window. The curve was large so I made them in three sections. The window that needed the beads had a constant radius (is was from a circle) but the actual window was not equal in height and width (so no obvious radious at first). To find out the radious I used my cad programme and input the height and then width and also the depth of the arc between both points (Depth of Arc between the height and width) and from that worked out the radius of the window using my CAD programme. I then took the measuments and used a router on a trammel to cut out a ply template using the radius obtained from the cad programme so I could machine the beads on my spindle moulder. I needed to roughhly shape the actual wood for the beads on a bandsaw before I could attacht the ply template and machine on the moulder, which did take a bit of time.

Just imagine if I had a CNC I could have gone straight from the cad drawing to machining the parts straight on a CNC saving some time!

At the moment I'm trying to understand the elements that make up the electrical components. There are lots of components but matching them correctly is a bit of a problem. It's doable but not easy so I'm torn between making my own CNC and just buying one. I'm currently thinking that it may be better to seek more advice as Mark has suggested as call outs can be costly!

Cheer to you Mark ;)
I'm with you, Mark. I really wished I'd found a local CNC company to cut these out for me.

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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by mark270981 » Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:22 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:36 pm
mark270981 wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:07 pm
As a CNc veteran

I am unsure on the accuracy of home built ones? But I do wish I had done that to start with as I would’ve learned more about the
.

Instead every call I out I have costs 800 quid - (we don’t have many to be fair)

Well worth it in my opinion as your starting point then you won’t get ripped off if you ever buy an industrial one
Hi Mark
IIRC you were going to set up to machine stuff for third parties. Did that ever happen ? Was it profitable ?
Never really materialised - although I have bought the domain name cabinet king.

But the odd few I have done has been profitable more so than the day to day stuff we do
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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by mark270981 » Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:25 pm

Has to be said we are wiz’s on CNC’ snow

I’m not sure what you are trying to achieve there Roger? But doesn’t look that pretty?
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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by thatsnotafestool » Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:42 am

It's two steps for our house. If I survive with all fingers intact it will be a miracle.

I'll post up a thread here later. Top step is obviously a smaller one.

Image
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by mark270981 » Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:44 am

We could draw and spin the components off for that in no time.

If you want in the new year I will do it for you FOC if you buy the materials - I’ll do it whilst you wait.
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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by mark270981 » Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:44 am

We could draw and spin the components off for that in no time.

If you want in the new year I will do it for you FOC if you buy the materials - I’ll do it whilst you wait.
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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by thatsnotafestool » Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:05 pm

mark270981 wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:44 am
We could draw and spin the components off for that in no time.

If you want in the new year I will do it for you FOC if you buy the materials - I’ll do it whilst you wait.
That's very kind of you, Mark. However, my 7 hour round trip is a bit of a non-starter :lol:
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by mark270981 » Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:11 pm

Ahh I thought you were in Worcester or thereabouts.

I must pay more attention.
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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by mark270981 » Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:11 pm

Ahh I thought you were in Worcester or thereabouts.

I must pay more attention.
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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by Meccarroll » Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:01 am

Back to the subject again and I have a question:

I see machines for sale and am getting to grips with the parts. But I don't know why or what's the real difference between Mach3 and GRBL??

Here is a bit of a breakdown of what I think are the main items of a CNC Router:
Mechanical
1. Main frame (Chassis or metal framing)
2. Motors (Stepper Motors for driving the spindle across, up/down etc).
3. Spindle for routing

Electric
4. Power supply (Converts 240v AC into other voltages for the Controller, Drivers etc)
5. Controller (Controls the Stepper Motor Drivers)
6. Driver (Drives the stepper motors)

7. PC, Software etc.

I see machines for sale on Alixpress with two different Controller setups and just wonder why? Mach3 and GRBL. It seems if I choose to buy one of the two the Controller and Drivers are different anyone know why?

Below is a link to a seller with both versions for sale. The main frame etc are the same but offered with either GRBL or MACH3.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3290560 ... 2e0ezK3TqI
Mark

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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by Andys Woodshed » Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:46 pm

Recommend Ooznest for your CNC build

https://ooznest.co.uk/

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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by Meccarroll » Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:00 pm

Andys Woodshed wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:46 pm
Recommend Ooznest for your CNC build

https://ooznest.co.uk/
Cheers Andy, I have been looking at several options including building my own. I am leaning toward buying a complete machine that needs building now mainly because there is so much to get to grips with and it may take an age to make one.

The Ooznest site is good, they sell the Workbee CNC which have the same frame components as the one on Aliexpress. Other components such as screw drive and bearings are the same too. Stepper motors are the same too except on Alixpress there are two versions because you can have MACH3 or GRBL controllers. Ooznest use lower torque stepper motors, I think mainly because they use a GRBL controller which they are suited too (correct me though).

Price wise Ooznest will supply essentially the same main frame machine but with a 900w Dewalt Router for around £1784 A similar machine on Alixpress is priced at £1100 including shipping but not including import Tax and Vat, I'm guessing it could round up to £1400.

There are full Machines on ebay excluding the router spindle that are supposed to be sold from within the UK so no import tax or vat and are priced at around £900 ish. I'd have to invest in a spindle with one of these as none is provided but still could save a lot of money.

I'm still looking and will put up some links as I find stuff. I may just buy a frame and add the components myself but I'm not sure which way to go at the moment.

The two frame types I'm looking at are Workbee and Shapeoko which although DIYish would do for a start. There is another frame type on the XCarve but I've watches some reviews and ruled that one out.

Anyone with more views or want to comment please do.

Mark

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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by Andys Woodshed » Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:09 pm

The support you get from ooznest is exceptional good
And if you do encounter problems they are quickly sorted with their Team Viewer system

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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by Meccarroll » Wed Dec 25, 2019 9:02 pm

Andys Woodshed wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:09 pm
The support you get from ooznest is exceptional good
And if you do encounter problems they are quickly sorted with their Team Viewer system
Do you have a Workbee or other CNC purchased directly from Ooznest, Andy?

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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by Andys Woodshed » Wed Dec 25, 2019 10:02 pm

Meccarroll wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 9:02 pm
Andys Woodshed wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:09 pm
The support you get from ooznest is exceptional good
And if you do encounter problems they are quickly sorted with their Team Viewer system
Do you have a Workbee or other CNC purchased directly from Ooznest, Andy?
Yes Workbee 1000x1000 screw driven machine with Duet control, Dewalt router
I use Vectric Cut2d pro software

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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by Meccarroll » Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:49 am

Andys Woodshed wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 10:02 pm
Meccarroll wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 9:02 pm
Andys Woodshed wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:09 pm
The support you get from ooznest is exceptional good
And if you do encounter problems they are quickly sorted with their Team Viewer system
Do you have a Workbee or other CNC purchased directly from Ooznest, Andy?
Yes Workbee 1000x1000 screw driven machine with Duet control, Dewalt router
I use Vectric Cut2d pro software
Cheers Andy, have you done any wood carving with it yet or Aluminium? any chance of a photo of the finished work if you have?

This is a pretty cool site I dropped on : https://openbuilds.com/forums/


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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by cncpaul » Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:37 pm

Mark,

What do you intend do make with the CNC Router ?

Paul
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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by Meccarroll » Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:58 pm

cncpaul wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:37 pm
Mark,

What do you intend do make with the CNC Router ?

Paul
Hi Paul and Merry Christmas to you!

What I want to make is a good question Paul. I mainly do site carpentry so don't need a machine for my main income area but over the years I have also made a few items of joinery that are curved. I make templates for the curved joinery items which can be time consuming if there are multiple radius to account for so maybe a CNC router could help there. I don't know much about CNC routers but from what I have learnt so far I think I would outgrow my first purchase within a year or so. I'm initially looking to buy a budget machine around £1500 to learn the basics then see where that leads to. No point in jumping into a 14K+ machine until you know you have the need.

A bit of a vague answer Paul but it depends upon wether I can find an outlet to make money from it I suppose. The up side is at around £1500 to start with I know I'd get my templates done easier and it's not a massive hole in the finances either LoL.

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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by cncpaul » Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:42 pm

Hi Mark, thank you, a merry Christmas to you.

I will go back to your earlier post.

Meccarroll wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:01 am
Back to the subject again and I have a question:

I see machines for sale and am getting to grips with the parts. But I don't know why or what's the real difference between Mach3 and GRBL??

Here is a bit of a breakdown of what I think are the main items of a CNC Router:
Mechanical
1. Main frame (Chassis or metal framing)
2. Motors (Stepper Motors for driving the spindle across, up/down etc).
3. Spindle for routing

Electric
4. Power supply (Converts 240v AC into other voltages for the Controller, Drivers etc)
5. Controller (Controls the Stepper Motor Drivers)
6. Driver (Drives the stepper motors)

7. PC, Software etc.

I see machines for sale on Alixpress with two different Controller setups and just wonder why? Mach3 and GRBL. It seems if I choose to buy one of the two the Controller and Drivers are different anyone know why?

Below is a link to a seller with both versions for sale. The main frame etc are the same but offered with either GRBL or MACH3.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3290560 ... 2e0ezK3TqI
Mark
Mach3 is now out of date the new version Mach4 works with a usb also a lot more expensive, GRBL is a hobby language used for Arduino controllers. There is a company called Masso that has an interesting controller that has the Pc built in, you just need a screen and a keyboard.

Steel frames are the most rigid but would involve a lot of metalwork, Aluminium is the easiest to work with as it is a nut and bolt construction. My machine is made from 6mm street plate and very large Ali extrusion (The Y axis is 200 x 120mm) with hardened steel
guide rails.

Spindle’s are by far the best, they are happy to run all day with far less noise, great if you are working from home and your hearing.
try www.cnc4you.com, i got one of their 2.2kw spindles and a matched VFD for a project l am building. Routers have a very short duty cycle.

Electrics, my advice would be to purchase these from a UK supplier so they all match and will give you some support, if you want to scratch build cnc4you will help,

Nearly all PC and laptops will run a CNC machine through a usb, keep away from parallel ports as they do not have a great speed of data transfer.

For software I would suggest any product form Aspire, in your case either 2D Pro or Vcarve Pro

I have no experience of the Ooznest and similar type cnc machines, the only thing that would concern me is the nylon wheels running on Ali extrusions (no hardened rails) and flexing. Size wise try get one that will take a 1220mm wide sheet and has the ability to pass through a full sheet of material, the two Aspire products I mentioned have the ability to split a file say 2400mm long and divide it into say three files, you can then cut the first one, move the sheet 800mm cut the second then move the sheet a further 800mm and cut the final one.

If you download the trial version of Cut2D or Vcarve you are free to do anything except output cutting file, it’s a great way to get up to speed well before you have the machine.
19D3E5E9-3557-4002-AE2B-C258966ADBE9.jpeg
19D3E5E9-3557-4002-AE2B-C258966ADBE9.jpeg (36.01 KiB) Viewed 2580 times
all these moulding were done on the CNC
Any question, just ask away

Paul
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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by Meccarroll » Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:09 am

cncpaul wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:42 pm
Hi Mark, thank you, a merry Christmas to you.

I have no experience of the Ooznest and similar type cnc machines, the only thing that would concern me is the nylon wheels running on Ali extrusions (no hardened rails) and flexing. Size wise try get one that will take a 1220mm wide sheet and has the ability to pass through a full sheet of material, the two Aspire products I mentioned have the ability to split a file say 2400mm long and divide it into say three files, you can then cut the first one, move the sheet 800mm cut the second then move the sheet a further 800mm and cut the final one.

If you download the trial version of Cut2D or Vcarve you are free to do anything except output cutting file, it’s a great way to get up to speed well before you have the machine.



Paul
Thank you for the reply Paul.

I'm starting to get a better picture of the makeup and running of a CNC router now but still learning.

You have the mechanical parts which is the frame and stepper motors to drive the moving frame around. All CNC machines seem to share similar setups there all be it with slightly different size frames, materials for frame and motor power. But how you control the motors and what software you use is where things really seem to start to change.

Onznest sell the Workbee frame in kit form (cut aluminium parts that bolt and screwed together) basically a self build meccano type CNC router frame. It's based around the Hobby market and has v.good support. It is still a self build kit and the same components can be purchased from other sellers including the Duet2 Controller. I have not used one but it's used quite a lot by hobby enthusiasts and small businesses. It costs around £1800 to buy and there is free software on the site that would get you up and running but it seems quite a lot of money for a basic machine. I think if I purchased one, because of it's following, I'd be able to re-sell it and get most of my money back so it's a worthy consideration.

£1800 still seems a lot of money for what the machine is, components etc, so my second thoughts are maybe look to buy a better frame from another supplier and add better components myself. The headache here is matching the components but the advantage might be that I'd end up with a very capable machine of higher spec for not too much more than a woorkbee.

I'm currently concentrating on Stepper motors, Stepper motor Drivers and the Controllers. I've heard about the "Masso Controller" and watched it in action but the reviews are a bit hear and there regarding it's ability to control things. I've been on a site called CNC Zone and there are comments about the shortfalls of the Masso controller. I guess Mach3 or Mach4 would maybe the best option but you have to buy a licence to use it.

Stepper motors are an important feature of any CNC machine, because they are used to move and hold the router while working, I'm going to see which ones I think might be best for me. The NEMA 23 Stepper motor has a mounting face that is a pretty standard size used in a lot of CNC routers. The Stepper motor face frame fitting size does not actually relate to the power of the motor, I originally thought it did. Some people use NEMA 34 Stepper motors but that is a big motor size and not necessarily any more powerful than a NEMA 23 Motor, it's just a bigger motor frame fitting. One of the key elements in stepper motors and their power is the Amps and rating of Nm from what I can gather.

The Stepper motor Driver and Controller are also very important so I'm going to be looking at those too. A fair bit of research to do I guess.

It was very useful what you said about routers only having a short duty cycle Paul, I never really gave that element a thought but I was already thinking about a spindle rather than using a Dewalt or other type of router because they are are not very controllable. You have to turn a router on and off so can't really leave the work piece also the speed of the router has to be done manually. Spindles can have their speed controlled by the software and can be set to switch off when the job has finished so as you say, a better option.

I'll update as I go along but please feel free to comment.

Mark

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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by Meccarroll » Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:37 am

Just a little of what I have found out to update.

I have been giving the workbee CNC Router quite a lot of consideration:

Image

It is sold as a self build kit and uses a standard Dewalt or Makita router. A 1mx1m machine including router would cost about £1600 ish from Onznest ( extras such as touch probe, dust shoe etc add to the cost). It is a basic machine that more or less comes ready to use once it's assembled. You can download software called Easel from the internet which can be used with the machine to produce designs for the machine to cut. I have took a good look at this machine from a components view and come to the conclusion that it is what could be called a starter hobby CNC machine.

WORKBEE https://ooznest.co.uk/product/workbee-c ... it/#review
Workbee.jpg


After looking at the Workbee I also took a look at the Shapeoko :
This machine comes in three sizes Standard XL and XXL, although not exactly a like for like match in size to the Workbee. I think you would have to buy the XXL size of the Shapeoko to match a 1mx1m Workbee for actual cutting area and it would cost £1859 for the XXL Shapeko (without router). It's more expensive than a Workbee and built differently. I would think it's still a hobby machine like to Workbee just built differently.
SHAPEOKO https://coolcomponents.co.uk/products/s ... 598525[img][/img]
Shapeoko.jpg



Because of way both of the above machines are constructed regarding the build I think trying to expand beyond a 900w router would start to push the framing components beyond their limits. Some people do use 1.5Kw and 2.2Kw (2200w) Spindles on the above machines but it's not actually recommended by the people who sell the kits in the UK.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-2KW-Air-Co ... 3.m5276img]
Spindle.jpg
Putting a larger spindle on a machine would give more power and allow longer working times than using a router because as CNCpaul has said the duty cycle of routers is actually short. Spindles are built for longer work periods so can be used for longer without burning the motor out.

The spindles are usually Three Phase so need something to convert our 240V single phase supply to Three phase so the spindle can run. The Box in the middle of the the picture (Called an Inverter, VDF) is what does that. You may have to make some modification to the Workbee Duet control so you can control the actual spindle (speed etc) from the software on your computer. I'm not exactly sure what's needed but I think the modification is simple and not costly, it's documented on the Onznest site somewhere.

I'm going to submit this now and update it later.

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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by cncpaul » Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:14 pm

Mark
One thing to remember, if you upgrade the Easel Pro software it will cost you $13- $20 a month.

My advice would be to purchase a spindle and VFD package from a UK supplier for support especially if the item have to be returned due to a fault, the weight of a spindle will incure a costly postal return to a Germany.

I would not worry about controlling the spindle speed from the software, you can control the spindle speed on the fly from the VFD, l doubt that Easel has that feature. spindle speed is set by cutter type and feed speed by what is called chip load, Aspire software now has a built in chip load calculator so you can set the spindle RPM before you start, l often tune mine by ear, after time you can hear when a cutter is overloaded or screaming and adjust the RPM accordingly.
Paul

If you only have a hammer then everything looks like a nail

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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by Meccarroll » Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:44 am

Mark
One thing to remember, if you upgrade the Easel Pro software it will cost you $13- $20 a month.

My advice would be to purchase a spindle and VFD package from a UK supplier for support especially if the item have to be returned due to a fault, the weight of a spindle will incure a costly postal return to a Germany.


I would not worry about controlling the spindle speed from the software, you can control the spindle speed on the fly from the VFD, l doubt that Easel has that feature. spindle speed is set by cutter type and feed speed by what is called chip load, Aspire software now has a built in chip load calculator so you can set the spindle RPM before you start, l often tune mine by ear, after time you can hear when a cutter is overloaded or screaming and adjust the RPM accordingly.
[/quote]
Cheers Paul for the info,

Drawing Software
Taking a quick look at Easel I don't think I'd be tempted to pay for the Pro version as it seems too basic even in Pro. http://easel.inventables.com/downloads
Easel Software
Image
Easel.jpg
Vectric Software
I think I'd look at 2D cut and VCarve Desktop for a start, From Vectric (as you suggest). The Vectric software offers several versions, the basic versions are more limited in work area but unlimited in Pro versions and there is a lot of options so I'd be looking more at these.
https://www.vectric.com/products/cut2d-desktop
Vetric.jpg
It would be a bit of an outlay for Vetric software in the first instance so I may just play around with the free version of Easel to get used to the software then buy a Version of Vetric software when I know a bit more about what I want.

Spindle V Router
I think you are right a spindle does seem a much better option than a router for any prolonged use. I only put the Chinese one up for illustration and think I might look at this from CNC4YOUhttps://www.cnc4you.co.uk/Spindle-Motor-Single- ... ch=spindle

Image
Spindle.jpg
I have been looking at some other desktop CNC routers and think one from Europe might be a good option. I'll post it up later along with a few others I've drooped on while looking. Building my own is still in contention but it is a time/work issue. Size wise I'm thinking I'd probably start off with a machine of around 1mx1m but I'm not sure yet. I think it's probably best for me to take my time and do the research first so keep coming back with information as it all helps.

Mark

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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by MJ80 » Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:32 pm

I'm going to keep an eye on this. I keep looking into this but find it pretty hard to get my head around. Ideally I want to build something that has a pretty high gantry, but there are stability issues on smaller home machines.

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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by Meccarroll » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:58 am

I have found a couple of alternatives to the Workbee and Shapeko CNC home build routers, not sure what others think so I'll post them and see.

Ebay listing:

This machine is made in the UK and comes complete with a second hand PC and a copy of Mach3. Apart from activating the Mach3 licence it seems ready to go so no building from a bundle of parts on kit form and a pc is supplied. Initially I thought these were a good option and they might be but at £3500 they are not as cheap as the Workbee and Shapeko the only thing is the CNC does look a lot stronger then either and has a 2.2Kw spindle so should cope with fairly heavy work if pushed.
CNC3.jpg
This is a base machine (No motors wires controller etc) from CNC1 which is made in Slovakia. If I did not want to build the frame myself this looks like a better alternative to the Workbee or Shapeko. The machine just looks better made and has screw for movement on all axis. It's priced at £850 plus £90 for delivery. The actual work area is 600mm by 850mm so comparable to either a Workbee or Shapeko, it has linear guide rails which seems like a better option than the polycarbonate rollers used on both the Workbee and Shapeko and it is less of a kit build too. It is also possible to have a Ball Screw version for around £150 more. So this might be an option.
CNC1.jpg
The CNC below has the same frame as above but is a complete machine with spindle, controller etc so would be a good alternative to either the Workbee and Shapeko . It does come in at £2290 so around £400 or so more than either the Workbee or Shapeko but the specification on the build components seems to be a lot higher. It is a complete machine with ballscrew and linear drives. It is supplied with an 800w spindle that can be upgraded to a 2.2KW spindle for a little under £100 more. I did look at the Shapeko and when I added all of the components I needed even with just a Dewalt Router it still came in at just over £2000 so the one from CNC1 is really not that costly in comparison as it does seem to have a better component build.

There are a lot of alternatives on offer from CNC1 http://www.cnc1.eu/sk/H_2000_HF.htm and I think it's worth taking a look at what's on offer just to get an idea of prices etc.

I'm still thinking about building my own CNC router because I am now starting to get a much better picture of what's needed. If I do I'd possibly try to do it as an economical build to gain experience in the first instance.

Mark

PS any comments are welcome :D
Attachments
CNC.jpg

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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by Meccarroll » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:59 am

cncpaul wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:42 pm
Hi Mark, thank you, a merry Christmas to you.


19D3E5E9-3557-4002-AE2B-C258966ADBE9.jpeg all these moulding were done on the CNC
Any question, just ask away

Paul
Where does time go!

Hi Paul, I have been looking quite a bit at CNC Routers since Christmas and building up a much better understanding but still need to learn a lot more.

I've been looking at several options and for my first machine don't think building one is going to much cheaper than buying a Mechanical WorkBee kit from China.
WB.jpg


I priced up just the linear rails and ball screws for a 1mx1m Frame, the cost came in at around £400. It would be well worth the money if it were to be my ultimate machine but I figure I'd want to go bigger at some stage so the parts might become redundant if I do another build (Not long enough). The cheapest option to start with would be a WorkBee kit from China as above Not perfect but a start). These use Acme Lead Screws for the motion on the X,Y and Z travel (8mm 2pitch). Because of the size 1mx1500mm, they can have some whip in the 1500mm direction. There is a simple way to tension the Lead Screws to take some of the whip out which I plan to do.

This Utube video shows a simple way to do it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbl3L-VATmU

This picture shows a Acme Lead Screw when only light movement is applied by the Gantry.
whip 2.jpg
This picture shows how the Acme Lead Screw starts to whip when Gantry movement increases.
whip.jpg


There is a bet option on the WorkBee Mechanical Kits (China version) which means no whip to worry about if you go over 1m in length but as the screw versions are more accurate I think I might go for the Acme Lead Screw version.



A picture of the 3GT belt is below. These are not as accurate as using Acme Lead Screws but the machine can be run at faster speeds.
3GT Belt.jpg

The drawing below shows the difference between Ball Screws and Acme Lead Screws. You can run a machine much faster with a Ball screw from what I gather so would be much better for a final build. There might still be a problem in using Ball screws if the machine goes over say 1m in lenght because of the whip that occurs when the ballscrew is put under pressure from the moving gantry. I was wondering how you overcome this with your build?
Thred.jpg
As you said you built your own and it's large enough to take 8'x4' sheets I was just wondering which system you use? Ball Screw, Acme lead screw, rack and pinion or Belt?

Any comments are welcome.

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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by cncpaul » Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:00 pm

Mark,

Don’t waste your money on lead screws, with the size of the spindle you are looking at (2.2kw) ball screw whip will not be an issue as long as you select the correct size.

I think you need to decide what you want to use your CNC for and the size, this will give you the basis to select your components.

The Easel software is fine if you stay with small format Shapeko type machines. There is no point learning a piece of software and then change to another that more suites you needs, all the Vectric products are free to download and learn to use apart from sending a file to a machine, Cut2D desktop is £165 to upgrade to another product you just pay the difference.

My CNC has rack and pinion drives, very simple and reliable, I am working on another machine, as I have a lot of parts already this will also be rack & pinion, a lot of the big iron manufacturers use R&P on the X axis.

Paul
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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by Meccarroll » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:42 pm

cncpaul wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:00 pm
Mark,

Don’t waste your money on lead screws, with the size of the spindle you are looking at (2.2kw) ball screw whip will not be an issue as long as you select the correct size.

I think you need to decide what you want to use your CNC for and the size, this will give you the basis to select your components.

The Easel software is fine if you stay with small format Shapeko type machines. There is no point learning a piece of software and then change to another that more suites you needs, all the Vectric products are free to download and learn to use apart from sending a file to a machine, Cut2D desktop is £165 to upgrade to another product you just pay the difference.

My CNC has rack and pinion drives, very simple and reliable, I am working on another machine, as I have a lot of parts already this will also be rack & pinion, a lot of the big iron manufacturers use R&P on the X axis.

Paul

Cheers Paul for your reply, I appreciate it.

For a lot of people and I include myself, taking the first step toward buying a CNC Router is like taking a leap of a very high dive board with no prior experience.

I have joined a couple of CNC forums which has been very helpful.

I am only thinking WorkBee 1500mmx 1000mm, "Lead Screw Driven" as an economical option to a self build mechanical frame option (time and materials etc considered). Without a supply of, "free materials", a self build could be quite costly if I need to upscale at a later date. I am thinking that if I start out using a cheap Workbee mechanical kit and wanted to upgrade I could keep all the electrics (if expensive) software etc for a better build like yours, and then sell the WorkBee Mechanical Lead Screw Driven Base machine on when I have a better Idea of what I need size wise.

For software and the main area of control for the CNC, I'm thinking about using UCCNC Control Software and a UC300ETH Controller coupled with a UB1 Board for connection to the actual machine. I may not start out with this setup but I'm leaning toward it.


Screen Shot of UCCNC Software interface
Uccnc.jpg

UC 300 ETH Controller and UB1 Board (for connecting to and controlling: Stepper motors, spindle, limit switches, etc)
CNC1.jpg


I have played around with Easel and it is nice and easy to use but probably underpowered (to say the least) when compared to UCCNC software.

I Thank you for reminding me that I can download the Vectric software and try it for free, I really should try it and now you have reminded me I will.

Rack and pinion, I was thinking 8'x4' and rack and pinion myself, so glad you have confirmed it. I'm not ready for a 8'x4' CNC machine yet, I'm just going to dip my toes into CNC and start out with something a lot smaller first to try to learn how things work.


Really appreciate your input CNCPaul.

Any other comment are welcome, feel free to just join in!

Mark

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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by 9fingers » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:06 pm

Whenever I have wanted to get into a new area or interest, I have bought used equipment and learned all about how it works. If it does all I want then great but in several cases, I've used the experienced gained to really specify what I need and in most cases have bought a new/nearly new machine. In one case I realised that I really did not need the capability after all.
I've then been able to re-sell the machine at very close to what I paid out.

Bob
Information on induction motors and inverters here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_GZrX ... sp=sharing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Image

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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by Meccarroll » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:17 am

9fingers wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:06 pm
Whenever I have wanted to get into a new area or interest, I have bought used equipment and learned all about how it works. If it does all I want then great but in several cases, I've used the experienced gained to really specify what I need and in most cases have bought a new/nearly new machine. In one case I realised that I really did not need the capability after all.
I've then been able to re-sell the machine at very close to what I paid out.

Bob

I was sort of thinking on those lines too Bob!

If I could find a reasonable second hand machine at the right price that would be great. The options I've looked at so fare are:

1. NEW FROM UK
I have looked at the cost of a 1500x1500mm Workbee Kit sold by Ooznest and that is £1590.00 but that price is just for a base machine mechanical kit that includes wiring, motors and controller. If you want to be able to do any machining with the base kit you need to add a router that will cost £159 extra for the recommended Dewalt one and then you need to add a router mount to fix it to the machine costing £35 extra, that totals £1784.00.
workb.jpg
workbee cost.jpg
The cost won't stop there because you will need router "milling bits" to machine with so maybe add another £50 and you are away at £1834.


2. SECOND HAND
Most of the second hand Workbee style machines I have seen for sale on ebay, Gumtree and Facebook have been around £1200 to £1600 or more! It doesn't take long before you realise this is not going to be cheap!

This is a second hand Workbee I found on ebay:

The size is 750x750mm and it does not have a router or router mount.
Bee.jpg
£1300 or thereabouts.



3. SOURCE PARTS and BUILD a KIT MYSELF

This is looking the most likely at the moment Bob.

Mechanical Kit from Alixpress: £399 + Import duties and Vat say £500
WB.jpg
Stepper Motors (example only) these are rated similar holding power as Workbee from Ooznest. £64.46 (Price is for Four)
Stepper.jpg

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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by Meccarroll » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:31 am

3. SOURCE PARTS and BUILD a KIT MYSELF.......Cont


TB6600 Drivers to run the Stepper Motors x4 (Kit has five) £29.59
Driver.jpg

One Arduino UNO R3 Board to connect to and control the electrical/mechanical components via computer £24 including Vat and Delivery.
Uno.jpg

Drag chain for running wires/cables on CNC machine so they don't tangle etc £19.69 + £9.02 postage. Say £25 after charges etc.
Drag.jpg

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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by Meccarroll » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:47 am

3. SOURCE PARTS and BUILD a KIT MYSELF.......Cont



Dewalt router (same as Ooznest supply) £152 inc vat and delivery.
rout.jpg

Dewalt router mount £14.99 + £5.50 postage Total £20.50
Mount.jpg

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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by Meccarroll » Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:13 am

3. SOURCE PARTS and BUILD a KIT MYSELF.......Cont

To add the the parts for a self build would be wires/cables, limit switches, enclosure for electric/electronic parts (could be made from MDF), emergency stop switch, and a PSU (220VAC to 36VDC Power supply unit for the Stepper Motor Drivers. ETC

220VAC to 36VDC PSU
PSU.jpg
So for cables PSU, Emergency Stop and Limit Switches add £200.




Self Build Cost Breakdown:

Electrical Cables, Switches and PSU approximately £200
Router Mount £20.50
Router £152
Stepper Motor Drivers £30
4x Stepper Motors NEMA 23 ££64
Arduino UNO R3 Controller £24
Drag Chain £25
WorkBee Mechanical Kit 1200x1500mm £500



Total £1155.00 Self Build V £1834 Ready made Kit, (That gives me something to think about!) .......Ummmmm......... I could potentially save £679 or thereabouts, I wonder if it is really worth it?

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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by 9fingers » Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:41 am

A few comments
That price for drivers is exceptionally good.
You can buy a generic R3 UNO clone about £20 cheaper on ebay if you want (they usually use a different USB chip and so you need to add a driver for ch340 family - easily found online)
Those generic power supply bricks are very good - I've used about half a dozen on projects various with no issues.

Buy or Build? Depends on how much free time you have Vs the potential saving and self satisfaction from diy.

Bob
Information on induction motors and inverters here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_GZrX ... sp=sharing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: CNC Building for woodwork

Post by Meccarroll » Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:20 am

9fingers wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:41 am
A few comments
That price for drivers is exceptionally good.
You can buy a generic R3 UNO clone about £20 cheaper on ebay if you want (they usually use a different USB chip and so you need to add a driver for ch340 family - easily found online)
Those generic power supply bricks are very good - I've used about half a dozen on projects various with no issues.

Buy or Build? Depends on how much free time you have Vs the potential saving and self satisfaction from diy.

Bob
I don't think the Drivers are really TB6600 Drivers as the sellers say they are upgraded (meaning not really TB6600 Drivers). From what I gather these drivers use a different chip to TB6600 Drivers, I don't think this will be a problem though as they are still rated at 4A. The Steppers in my list are rated at 2.8A so all should be ok from that point of view if I go for them.


THE UNO R3
I have a couple of UNO R3's on the way, One is a genuine Arduino UNO R3 Price £24 including delivery and the other is a clone UNO R3, it is actually an ELEGOO version (copy) and is part of an Electronics kit from Amazon £18.77:
UNO2.jpg
The above price says £29.99 but I got the kit when it was on offer a couple of days ago for £18.77.

When they arrive I'm going to download the Arduino software:



Arduino website (UNO downloads and resources)
https://www.arduino.cc/en/Guide/ArduinoUno
Arduino.jpg
There are a lot of learning resources on the Arduino site and I intend using the ELEGOO kit along with some of the tutorials and online resources to help me obtain a better understanding of what's going on with a CNC machine.
Arduino Web.jpg
Thank you for the tip about USB port Bob.
chip.jpg

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