Tool advice.

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HAMMERHEAD
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Tool advice.

Post by HAMMERHEAD » Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:02 pm

Hi. Im in my early 50's and always been in construction, but winding down now and fancy turning my hand at woodworking..(as a hobbyist but a little earning). Im about to build my own workshop... insulated concrete floor with insulated timber/shiplap walls and a pitch roof..
Approx what would be a reasonable size? I am doing ALL the work myself including, electrics, plumbing, woodburner etc etc, Im quite handy with studwork, framing, doors/windows/ linings etc, so cost will be kept to a minimum and only for materials. What would be a reasonable size for the machinery/tools needed? I only intend it, as im no chippy and certainly no cabinet maker for things like, garden tables/ benches, pergolas, bird boxes, hutches etc etc... N o specialist machinery needed there but evetually I want to make my own doors, kitchen cabinets, cupboards and shelving units.
So this is so confiluted.... so wots best size, roughly.... and what machinery can I get to start off at around £3000-4000ish? I have many basic tools like good quality chop/ mitre saws, clamps, cordless, drills/ hammer drills, measuring equipment, chisels etc etc.... its just basic stuff like table saw, band saw, thicknesser/planer. Jointer etc.
Any advice/ recommendations would be a huge help.
Thanks in advance.

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Re: Tool advice.

Post by jfc » Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:25 am

As big as you can and then double it .

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Re: Tool advice.

Post by woodsmith » Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:45 am

I managed with a garage sized workshop for years, then moved and got a double garage sized workshop where I could fit a proper bench, chop saw, small table saw, bandsaw and planer thicknesser. I now have about about 700 square ft and squeeze in a small panel saw, a spindle, router table, lathe, a disk sander and a drum sander. If I could I'd have one twice as big so Jason's advice is spot on! That said you can make most things in a small space but it's not very efficient.
Keith

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Re: Tool advice.

Post by 9fingers » Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:02 am

First thing to decide is if you are able to build it under Permitted Development Rights or if you will need planning permission.
If under PDR then keeping to max 30sqm internal will mean that you should not need to get building control involved.
You say you are doing your own electrics, but are you able to sign them off under Part P your self or got a mate who can. Under 30sqm this can be kept out of sight but not if BCO will be involved.
I built one 30sqm but it could not be more than 3m wide due to a mature tree. 14 years on the tree is dead and I wish I had built it nearer square.
Think about how you would break down sheet goods. A track saw is about the best in a small space but if your are going to do it on a table saw with 8' sheets then you ideally want a clear 16' square centered on the blade of the TS although you can get away with less if you can re-organise your cutting sequence.

Bob
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Re: Tool advice.

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:03 pm

I think you'll struggle with that budget to buy all the things you're suggesting.
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
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Re: Tool advice.

Post by 9fingers » Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:16 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:03 pm
I think you'll struggle with that budget to buy all the things you're suggesting.
Agreed If you are buying new but careful selection of used kit with a positive attitude to fixing any little niggles yourself then you could well stay in the upper end of your budget.

Bob
Information on induction motors and inverters here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_GZrX ... sp=sharing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Tool advice.

Post by HAMMERHEAD » Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:52 am

jfc wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:25 am
As big as you can and then double it .
LOL. I Wish. :lol:

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Re: Tool advice.

Post by HAMMERHEAD » Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:11 am

9fingers wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:02 am
First thing to decide is if you are able to build it under Permitted Development Rights or if you will need planning permission.
If under PDR then keeping to max 30sqm internal will mean that you should not need to get building control involved.
You say you are doing your own electrics, but are you able to sign them off under Part P your self or got a mate who can. Under 30sqm this can be kept out of sight but not if BCO will be involved.
I built one 30sqm but it could not be more than 3m wide due to a mature tree. 14 years on the tree is dead and I wish I had built it nearer square.
Think about how you would break down sheet goods. A track saw is about the best in a small space but if your are going to do it on a table saw with 8' sheets then you ideally want a clear 16' square centered on the blade of the TS although you can get away with less if you can re-organise your cutting sequence.

Bob
Thanks for info and advice Bob.
Ive had my own small ( very small) construction business for many years, and also done my own drawings and applied for planning and regs through BCO so am familiar with procedures and requirements, although they appear to be constantly moving the goal posts when it suots them.
My son is also a self employed sparky so he will check and sign off any work I carry out.
With all the legal requirements etc out of the way I was just wonering what sort of size workshop I would require minimum. I know its a case of " how long is a bit of string" and obviously " the bigger" is definitely " the better" but somehow I dont think the missus would allow me to chop up the whole of my rear garden. :oops:
Im not sure how much space the basic machinery would require (THIS WILL NOT BE A PROFESSIONAL WORKSHOP, JUST HOBBYIST WITH THE MEANS TO MAKE A LITTLE POCKET MONEY). I was thinking maybe 7mx 5m ish, perhaps slightly larger? Would this suffice?
Also reccomdations on machinery? Is the likes of the evolution rage 5s too lightweight and inaccurate for starting off? What about planer/ thicknesset etc etc?
I got a plethora of power hand tools and manual handtools.
Any advice is gratefully appreciated.
Thanks everyone for help.

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Re: Tool advice.

Post by HAMMERHEAD » Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:22 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:03 pm
I think you'll struggle with that budget to buy all the things you're suggesting.
Thanks buddy, i expect your more than likely right. Its not goin to be a professional workshop, i was just being a little reserved with costs as it depends on size of workshop and what cash is left over to kit it out.
I have loads of powered and manual hand tools.... its just the bigger machinery for a basic hobbyist that im after.. i can always go bigger/ larger/ better quality later ( altho this may prove even more expensive in long run). And Im aware you could pay probably £4000 just for a serious table saw.
Any advice on machinery and lower budget equipment i.e site/ hybrid tools would be great. Toying with lower end stuff like the evo rage 5s or a llittle step up to the dewalt gear.
Are these better to be fixed insitu permanently or is mobile wheeling around better? I sort of know the answer, hence what size workshop would be reasonable.
Thanks again.

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Re: Tool advice.

Post by HAMMERHEAD » Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:24 am

9fingers wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:16 pm
thatsnotafestool wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:03 pm
I think you'll struggle with that budget to buy all the things you're suggesting.
Agreed If you are buying new but careful selection of used kit with a positive attitude to fixing any little niggles yourself then you could well stay in the upper end of your budget.

Bob
Thanks again Bob. Maybe a lot more research is required, its just blutty well time consumingsnd confusing. GRRRR.

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Re: Tool advice.

Post by thatsnotafestool » Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:13 am

I use my Evolution Rage for cutting up pallets for firewood. I wouldn't dream of using it even make a birdbox.

One suggestion for you is to pop over the ukworkshop.co.uk and use their search facility as these question has come up many times in the past. It's as good a place to start your research.
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
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Re: Tool advice.

Post by 9fingers » Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:48 am

One of the first decisions on machinery is new or used?
If new, quality will come at a price. There are bargains to be had with brands such a Startrite, Wadkin, Sedgewick, Multico etc
Don't be put of by three phase as you can get them cheaper and run with a converter/inverter which your son should be ableto help with or I can advise if you like.
7x5 sounds a good size to me and plan the location of machines such that you can run long lengths through a machine and out a doorway or even a hatchway in a wall.
I have set all my work surfaces dead level with my table saw so the benches etc can be used as infeed support. Very useful for a one man shop. A large outfeed table providing at least 5' after the saw blade exit will fully support cuts on 8x4 sheets so you can concentrate on guiding the work.

Bob
Information on induction motors and inverters here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_GZrX ... sp=sharing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Tool advice.

Post by HAMMERHEAD » Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:12 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:13 am
I use my Evolution Rage for cutting up pallets for firewood. I wouldn't dream of using it even make a birdbox.

WOW!!! They are that bad are they. seem to be so many mixed reviews on them that im wasteing time and energy into reviewing every single make/ manufacturer. I'LL be in a box ( made by someone else) at this rate. :lol:


One suggestion for you is to pop over the ukworkshop.co.uk and use their search facility as these question has come up many times in the past. It's as good a place to start your research.

Good call. I'LL check them out later. I should have the workshop ( weather and time permitting) up by end of spring so i want to start filling it then...
Thanks for advice.

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Re: Tool advice.

Post by HAMMERHEAD » Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:26 am

9fingers wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:48 am
One of the first decisions on machinery is new or used?
If new, quality will come at a price. There are bargains to be had with brands such a Startrite, Wadkin, Sedgewick, Multico etc
Don't be put of by three phase as you can get them cheaper and run with a converter/inverter which your son should be ableto help with or I can advise if you like.
7x5 sounds a good size to me and plan the location of machines such that you can run long lengths through a machine and out a doorway or even a hatchway in a wall.
I have set all my work surfaces dead level with my table saw so the benches etc can be used as infeed support. Very useful for a one man shop. A large outfeed table providing at least 5' after the saw blade exit will fully support cuts on 8x4 sheets so you can concentrate on guiding the work.

Bob
Yet again, thank Bob.
Some really good advice there. Thats the sort of stuff Im after, names of reputable tools and also where/ how to set oit workshop... Probably common sense to some pepple, but some of it not so obviuos to me, e.g, the 5 ft end feed support... i do have portable adjustable supports but would much rather keep the floor space as clear as possible and have a more permanent solution along the walls. And although I will probably be moving/ re-erecting or redesigning benches etc over time, i want to get the bulk of it right first off.
CHEERS BOB.

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Re: Tool advice.

Post by thatsnotafestool » Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:12 pm

You don't need permanent supports. Personally I hate using those roller supports. They flop all over the place and simply don't give the support you need.

For my current workshop I made two removeable extensions for the planer/thicknesser.

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Re: Tool advice.

Post by thatsnotafestool » Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:31 pm

For what it's worth, I do very little with hand tools and that bench you see in the background is rarely used. Not being in the best place doesn't help! I use this assembly bench nearly all the time.

Image

Here's my 'must-have' list

Table saw ...not a panel saw as they take up a huge footprint if they are going to be of any use. Much better to get a tracksaw and lay the sheet down on the floor on a sheet of Kinsgpan or similar and cut on that. Easier on the old back as well.

Ideally a separate planer and separate thicknesser.

Decent sliding cross-cut mitre saw.

Small router table and router.

Small router for handheld use. It's a pain to keep taking the damn thing in and out of the route table.

The Festool domino makes assembly of joints very easy.

Good extractor.
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
Friedrich Nietzsche

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Re: Tool advice.

Post by 9fingers » Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:36 pm

Quite agree Roger, the portable stands can be worse than useless as they can get knock out of line by a warped board etc.
I initially had a fold down outfeed table but it tended to get left up, then stuff put underneath and never went down and it was too short to hold an 8x4 after cutting without tipping.
The Mk2 design is a fixed outfeed table 5' plus with a router set in it part way along.
It serves well as outfeed, assembly table and router table.
I've also arranged my thicknesser so that the bed is level with the infeed side of the table saw so the table saw and its outfeed table act as a huge outfeed when thicknessing timber.
This gives me capacity to process up to 4m lengths through the thicknesser.
My experience is that layouts are not always right first time and sometimes you have to do the best you can to start with and then be prepared to refine or improvise the design later.

Bob
Information on induction motors and inverters here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_GZrX ... sp=sharing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Tool advice.

Post by thatsnotafestool » Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:11 pm

One other thought. When choosing your SCMS look out for one with, what I call a trenching facility. Let's you cut only part way down into the wood and no further. Great for making half-lap joints and similar.
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
Friedrich Nietzsche

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Re: Tool advice.

Post by promhandicam » Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:08 am

FWIW, If you are going to be using sheet material, I'd look at a good (festool) plunge saw and rail (ideally a 2700mm) rather than a cheap panel saw.

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Re: Tool advice.

Post by Meccarroll » Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:35 am

Hi read a few suggestions on here and all are relevant.

I started with a single garage and few machines and coule make windows, doors etc. The more machinery I purchased the less space I had to work in. So I needed to go bigger! I now have an area of 6x8m and find it cramped at times so as Jason said go as big as you can.

If you are planning on making kitchens etc you really do need to go as big as you can. So from experience we would all probably be thinking how much space do you have to spare and what's the biggest workshop that you can build! Because once you have built your workshop you won't have a problem filling it but you will often wish you had more space in it for what you are doing.

When you machine a lot of items (say for a kitchen) you need somewhere nearby to stack them while you feed the machine and somewhere once you have machined them. You also need space to move them onto other machines and stack around other machines too. So consider moving items around machines when planning your workshop also the space needed to machine too.

If you move materials around by a trolly it will speed things up and make life a lot easier. So plan your workflow and try to allow space to move.

Dust extraction is essential if you value your health so plan to invest some of your £3-4000 in a decent dust extraction system. Place the extractor outside your work area so you don't end up breathing in recirculated fine dust particles.

You will need a workbench for assembly and to work on and space around it so you can move. SPACE SPACE SPACE!

Machines need tooling and so count in the cost of essential tooling for the machines you will need. Spindle moulders are one of the most costly machines for tooling.

Plan your workflow and design a workshop around it allow space to move and work then look at the size you may need. As Jason has said it's always twice what you think you need.

Mark

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Re: Tool advice.

Post by jfc » Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:08 pm

Ive ended up spacing my machines 4 ft apart but in a space i can walk down between them . Between each machine is 8ft in front and behind . They are basically staggered each side of the space . My main square workshop is a bit wasted to be honest as it doesnt work very well . The table saw , extractor and work bench take up most of that space . The corridor i added works very well .
This is for static heavy machines that dont move . If you are going for lighter stuff then look into building wheel bases for them so you can pull them out to use and then push them back against a wall when you dont need them .

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Re: Tool advice.

Post by HAMMERHEAD » Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:47 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:31 pm
For what it's worth, I do very little with hand tools and that bench you see in the background is rarely used. Not being in the best place doesn't help! I use this assembly bench nearly all the time.

Image

Here's my 'must-have' list

Table saw ...not a panel saw as they take up a huge footprint if they are going to be of any use. Much better to get a tracksaw and lay the sheet down on the floor on a sheet of Kinsgpan or similar and cut on that. Easier on the old back as well.

Ideally a separate planer and separate thicknesser.

Decent sliding cross-cut mitre saw.

Small router table and router.

Small router for handheld use. It's a pain to keep taking the damn thing in and out of the route table.

The Festool domino makes assembly of joints very easy.

Good extractor.
Thank you my friend, some really good points in both your above posts. Definitely need a router table aswell, one with wheels on so i can push it away in the corner after finished with.
Never actually used the extendable supports yet but those collapsable supports you have look easy and cheap enough to make?? ?
I need to do more research ( A LOT MORE RESEARCH) on some of the tools mentioned.
Thanks again.

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Re: Tool advice.

Post by HAMMERHEAD » Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:55 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:11 pm
One other thought. When choosing your SCMS look out for one with, what I call a trenching facility. Let's you cut only part way down into the wood and no further. Great for making half-lap joints and similar.
Another tool to look up..👍👍
Suddenly realising how little I know now, and altho I have, what seemed to me to be a vast array of powered hand tools and the the likes of chops saws, SCMS, pillar drills etc, I know very little about some of their functionality and abilities. ( if that makes sense.)
Thanks again.

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Re: Tool advice.

Post by HAMMERHEAD » Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:01 am

promhandicam wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:08 am
FWIW, If you are going to be using sheet material, I'd look at a good (festool) plunge saw and rail (ideally a 2700mm) rather than a cheap panel saw.
Thank you. Yes Im currently looking at these type of saws and very useful on site and also for flooring as Im not the best with an ordinary circular saw ( lack of use and practice i suppose)??? when trying to cut a nice neat panel out for access to pipes etc on callouts.
FESTOOL so damn expensive tho. Lol.

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Re: Tool advice.

Post by HAMMERHEAD » Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:24 am

Meccarroll wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:35 am
Hi read a few suggestions on here and all are relevant.

I started with a single garage and few machines and coule make windows, doors etc. The more machinery I purchased the less space I had to work in. So I needed to go bigger! I now have an area of 6x8m and find it cramped at times so as Jason said go as big as you can.

If you are planning on making kitchens etc you really do need to go as big as you can. So from experience we would all probably be thinking how much space do you have to spare and what's the biggest workshop that you can build! Because once you have built your workshop you won't have a problem filling it but you will often wish you had more space in it for what you are doing.

When you machine a lot of items (say for a kitchen) you need somewhere nearby to stack them while you feed the machine and somewhere once you have machined them. You also need space to move them onto other machines and stack around other machines too. So consider moving items around machines when planning your workshop also the space needed to machine too.

If you move materials around by a trolly it will speed things up and make life a lot easier. So plan your workflow and try to allow space to move.

Dust extraction is essential if you value your health so plan to invest some of your £3-4000 in a decent dust extraction system. Place the extractor outside your work area so you don't end up breathing in recirculated fine dust particles.

You will need a workbench for assembly and to work on and space around it so you can move. SPACE SPACE SPACE!

Machines need tooling and so count in the cost of essential tooling for the machines you will need. Spindle moulders are one of the most costly machines for tooling.

Plan your workflow and design a workshop around it allow space to move and work then look at the size you may need. As Jason has said it's always twice what you think you need.

Mark
Thank you Mark.. really good advice there, Im quite a disorganised person by nature, until I get into the swing of things and realise im getting into a pickle and work, materials, tools are starting to crowd in on me so somethings gotta change. ORGANIZATION, is the key and storing, stacking things each end of a machine ( before and after processing) plus a good trolley, all takes space but saves a load of time... Simple things like this can at times be overlooked.
The more Im researching, the more i realise I need, and yes, you are all right, i think Im going to have to go a little larger on the workshop size. As I said, its not going to be a professional workshop, where Ive got kitchen cabinets, windows, doors, cupboards, welsh dressers etc go out every day of the week, but if Im going to do a workshop I may aswell get it nigh on right with some reasonable machinery, after all my boys will inherit and may choose to keep as a hobby themselves???? Who knows eh.
YEPP a good quality dust ectractor is a must and it will be boxed in, in a soundproofed, locked cabinet on the outside of the workshop... obviuosly i need to work out exactly where and the performance of the unit if it is too far away from the machines etc....
Thanks again

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Re: Tool advice.

Post by HAMMERHEAD » Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:33 am

jfc wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:08 pm
Ive ended up spacing my machines 4 ft apart but in a space i can walk down between them . Between each machine is 8ft in front and behind . They are basically staggered each side of the space . My main square workshop is a bit wasted to be honest as it doesnt work very well . The table saw , extractor and work bench take up most of that space . The corridor i added works very well .
This is for static heavy machines that dont move . If you are going for lighter stuff then look into building wheel bases for them so you can pull them out to use and then push them back against a wall when you dont need them .
Thank you.
Yepp i have to sit down and try picture in my head and put it to paper exactly where everything should go... ypur right some of the static machinery is MAHOOSIVE and so damn dear.and the good stuff like startrite, wadkin etc because its mainly cast iron, so damn heavey aswell. I couldnt believe the prices on some of these even old secondhand ones. I'll be researching these a little more an gona wait for a bargain if I can...
Yes, the smaller machinrey such as table router will be on wheels so I can tuck them away.
Thanks again for input and advice.

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Re: Tool advice.

Post by HAMMERHEAD » Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:44 am

Thank you everyone for the advice so far.
The more Im being informed, the more I realise nothing whatsoever about workshop life, the machines ( brands, functunality etc) , space needed, workshop size, prices etc etc, so yes i think i will have to do a lot more research and thought into it. I'll definitely have to go a little larger on workshop foot print ( hope the missus dont notice the extra meter or so 😀😀) and yes I think I may struggle to kit it out on around £4000.
Hey ho I'll get it built first, and all the while keep looking for bargains. All common sense really and depends on what I want from it. Just wish it had been a simple ""YES, 7MX5M MORE THAN BIG ENOUGH, AND FOR £4000, YOU CAN KIT IT OUT ATLEAST TWICE OVER"". 🤣🤣🤣
Thanks again all. 👍👍👍

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Re: Tool advice.

Post by 9fingers » Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:45 am

Yes festool are expensive and arguably worth the included rapid repair service and replacement insurance to heavy trade users.
However within each tool type there are a few nearly as well designed tools from other makers.
Yes do your research and don’t assume the dearest tool will be best vfm for your needs.

Bob
Information on induction motors and inverters here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_GZrX ... sp=sharing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Tool advice.

Post by jfc » Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:08 am

There are bargains to be had , you just need to keep an eye on ebay and let everyone know you are after machines . Also be willing to travel to collect them although you can get things put on a pallet for about £100 .

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Re: Tool advice.

Post by jfc » Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:15 am

For example

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Startrite-Th ... SwNhNeRsOa

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/planer-with- ... Swb39d~fkF

Not great but with these two you can prep sawn timber . Probably one of the biggest savings you will make is buying sawn rather than PAR

I'm going back to ebay now to spend some more of your money :lol:

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Re: Tool advice.

Post by thatsnotafestool » Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:21 am

Cutting access holes in floors I use this
routabout.png
And for running down the joints in straight runs, there's a tiny plunging circular saw with a 3" blade that's ideal for the job and very cheap. Can't recall the maker - sorry.
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
Friedrich Nietzsche

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