White spindle moulder

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tusses
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White spindle moulder

Post by tusses » Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:30 pm

well at this price I thought I'd try it

anyone heard of this make ?

link

scrit
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Post by scrit » Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:32 pm

Of course I have.

Scrit

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White spindle moulder

Post by engineerone » Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:46 pm

and ???

paul ;)

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Post by jfc » Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:13 pm

You didnt buy it did you ;D

tusses
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Post by tusses » Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:16 pm

indeed I did ;D

I thought at that price, I could weigh it in and still make a profit !

I hear you had one similar ?

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Post by jfc » Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:28 pm

Yup , the Tyzak . Pile of under powered sh*t for modern blocks but great for french cutters. Scrap it and spend some moneyon a bursgreen 8-)

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Post by tusses » Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:33 pm

I'll see when I get it.

I dont have three phase, so I'll either have to get another motor or a phase converter.

I suppose I could up the power if I got a bigger motor ?

I'm not in a position to afford proper spindle money at the moment !

will be interesting to see a spindle for the 1st time anyway !

Rich

tusses
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Post by tusses » Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:35 pm

oh - I might add... I dont like big doing 'big' stuff , so I might find it usefull for a while ???

scrit
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Post by scrit » Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:51 am

tusses wrote:I suppose I could up the power if I got a bigger motor ?
Up the power? That assumes that the 40+ year old bearings will take the extra strain. I can't see you putting a bigger engine into a car without giving some consideration to the transmission, so what makes a machine any different? If it's 3/4HP (and that's what the spec sheet says), then I'd follow suit. You'll also need a DoL starter, so your cheap buy will cost another

tusses
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Post by tusses » Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:23 am

Thanks again Scrit - Time will tell.

As I said, Ive not seen a spindle up close, so I'll see how it ticks when I get it !

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Post by wizer » Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:38 am

JESUS WEPT!

You just bought a tractor!!

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Post by tusses » Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:12 pm

so...


whithout wanting to upset anyone. can we seperate 'joinery' from wood working ?

this machine has been in use for however long, so I would assume it HAS a use ?

the only time I can see me wanting large tenons is on a large table.

bookcases / coffee tables etc just need small tenons.

I was hoping this is one step up from a router table ???

no ???

your thoughts ?

ta

Rich ;D

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Post by Andys Woodshed » Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:33 pm

jfc wrote:Yup , the Tyzak . Pile of under powered sh*t for modern blocks but great for french cutters. Scrap it and spend some moneyon a bursgreen 8-)
What did happen to yours Jason
Last I heard you couldn't even give it awayImage

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Post by jfc » Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:54 pm

Oh very good , linking back to a site i am banned from ::)


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Tusses , i would say it's not a step up as you cant run a legal block on it . well you can but you will get a faster finish on the router table . If that is the same as my Tyzak it will just be in the way . You will be lucky to run a medium moulding in one pass with that so even a tiny tenon will make it struggle .
You cant seperate wood working from joinery when you are using joinery machines . You need to use joinery tooling to run even the smallest of mouldings .

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Post by tusses » Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:14 pm

Thaks for your reply JFC :)

I have the 3 phase motor out of my whitehead TS and I have seen plans for a rotory 3 phase converter on the web, so I think I will at least give it a go before I dismiss it !

Cheers

Rich

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Post by jfc » Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:29 pm

Well im not to up on the electrical side of things but my moulder is the biggest you get before it goes to three phase so i am told . So what you are planning to do worries me . I have been down the road your about to take and i would say invest a few hundred quid in a better moulder and you will see how good they really are .

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Post by tusses » Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:49 pm

what I am planning , is seeing how the moulder has been used for the last 30/40 years !, I'm not going to change anything for now :)

but .... I am thinking ahead ...

If it is not up to it, I may take the 30mm arbor out of the whitehead and see if I can use it in the moulder ::) ;D

scrit
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Post by scrit » Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:51 pm

You can't remove joinery from furniture or cabinetmaking. Almost any joint making activity is, by its nature, a form of joinery. It's just the scale which varies

The "Nippy" was originally sold to restorers, picture frame makers etc as a small spindle moulder for delicate work such as beadings andthe like. This sort of spindle moulder (and there were 3 or 4 makers) went out of fashion very quickly when the low-cost Watford (later Centec) bench top pin router came in during the 1950s, long before Trend/Elu in the UK. The finish from the higher speed router cutters was actually superior to that of the relatively small blocks (or French cutters) offered by the bench top spindles. They died a very rapid death.

Maybe the point is that one of the major advantages of a spindle moulder is that you should be able to run even a large moulding in a single pass. Rebating (of which you do a lot in joinery and less in furniture makking, but still quite a bit) is very power intensive - something you lack with just 3/4HP. So it will struggle on heavy cuts and may even stall which is not safe practice.

As to using a table saw over a spindle moulder that's just plain ignorance about safe and effective wood machining and I'll say no more.

Scrit

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Post by wizer » Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:52 pm

IMHO you need to get rid. Tart it up, maybe convert it to single phase, then send it back to eBay and pray you get your money back.

Ok, you won't get a good spindle for

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Post by wizer » Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:53 pm

Can I ask why/how a spindle can take deeper passes?

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Post by jfc » Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:15 pm

what I am planning , is seeing how the moulder has been used for the last 30/40 years !,

By the looks of it ....... it hasnt been ;D

On a very serious note i would listen to what Scrit has to say about this ( if he wants to get involved in what you are planning to do )
Ok we have been taking the p*ss a bit up till now and if you look at Andys link , from memory you can see they ripped the crap out of me ;D
What i see is you are trying to bodge up an old spindle moulder and i have serious concerns that you are going to hurt yourself in doing that . I'm not giving it the big H&S thing , in fact anyone that has seen my workshop will agree it's a nightmare on that front :o

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Post by jfc » Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:19 pm

Can I ask why/how a spindle can take deeper passes?

Cause it goes HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM



Rather than
WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

;D

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Post by tusses » Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:30 pm

ok - thanks guys ... I'll get it, convert it, and see what spindles are all about, then go from there.

I only considered a spindle over a router table, from recommendations on here!

maybe I should slow down a bit ???

Rich

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Post by jfc » Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:07 pm

No need to slow down , just buy a good spindle moulder and you will see how good they are . You dont need to spend thousands but there is a reason that one sold for very little .

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Post by tusses » Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:44 pm

1st off, can someone edit the long post that goes off the screen please ;D

ok ..

picked up the moulder today.

It looks a well thought out bit of kit !

the fence is split and each side moves indipendently in and out and side to side.

it looks to me like it has a good guard.

the table tilts

it has a sliding dovetail mitre slot

takes a range of cutters

looks like I can swap the motor easily

the motor is 3/4 hp and 2840 rpm with a 3:1 pully so 8520 rpm at the cutter.

I've done a bit of cleaning
here are some pics to be going on with

I'll be asking more questions about its safety in a bit !

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

I have another thread with more pics that I wont duplicate here !

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Post by scrit » Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:58 pm

tusses wrote:1st off, can someone edit the long post that goes off the screen please ;D
Done

tusses wrote:the fence is split and each side moves indipendently in and out and side to side
Modern fences have micrometer adjustment which is quite important in terms of useability

tusses wrote:takes a range of cutters
Wellllllll - what sizes are the spindle top pieces? Modern European cutter blocks have bores of 30, 35, 40mm and 1-1/4in in the main and it isn't advisable to step-up too far with top hats, so 1in to 1-1/4in isn't an issue but 3/4in to 1-1/4in might be pushing your luck a bit (more based on the size/weight of the blocks). One minor issue might be the size of the guard and the size of the table opening. For rebating in particular you need to be able to drop the block part way beneath the table so for that you'll need a big-enough opening (probably 100mm as there are few rebate blocke under that size). If it is big enough to accommodate modern blocks you might want to consider some of the ally blocks sold for the likes of the smaller Kity and Zinken machines. You'll need to be wary of the blocks speed rating, though. The other restriction if the size of the motor - 3/4HP isn't a lot to drive a cutter block and you'll probably find the machine slowing down in heavier cuts - part of the purpose of a spindle moulder is to take the cuts in a single pass if possible. It's safer and quicker to do that and that's one of the main plusses of the spindle, that and the fact that a full-size spindle will remove a 3 x 1/2in rebate in solid hardwood in one pass, more accurate and without the witness lines you can get with a router [that's for Wizer's benefit, too ;D]

Personally I'd put the tooling in a drawer - the French top piece is illegal and they can be dangerous for reasons previously stated. Old-style Whitehill blocks are also not the safest things around (despite Grim loving them) and be careful with the groovers. They're non-limiter design makes them a bit more "snatchy" than modern limiter type tooling.

tusses wrote:I have another thread with more pics that I wont duplicate here !
As JFC and others are banned from UKWS would you mind putting up your other photos here as well?

Scrit

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Post by tusses » Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:20 am

thanks Scrit. - the other thread is here too :)
I see you've found it.

The fence has a knurled knob on the back of each side. You turn them to move the fence in and out. Is this what you call the micrometer adjustment ?

the spindle tops I have are 5/8 and 3/4

as for rebating and lowering the head below the table - I presume a sacrificial false bed would do the same job ?

I looked at the slot cutters and thought two things - 1st, you can make your own copies of moulding/beading details - 2nd, I thought , hmmmm. they look like they could come out whilst in use ! LOL
Could they be used safely for moulding / beading if I made a totaly enclosed 'tunnel' to feed the wood through ?

the whitehill blocks similar to above ?

I'll do some googling, to see what the new style cutter blocks look like. Can you make your own tooling for the new ones ?

EDIT > after wrting this, I have googled and learned a bit more - including reading the HSE sheet for vertical spindle moulders <EDIT

as for motor power - I had always thought a spindle moulder was used for its namesake 'moulding' so I hadn't considered cutting large rebates and tenons. so , I presume that if I use it to make mouldings and beadings etc it might be up to the job.

over all I am happy with it - even if I only use it as a large router table, or just use the fence on a home made router table , its worth the

scrit
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Post by scrit » Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:45 am

tusses wrote:as for rebating and lowering the head below the table - I presume a sacrificial false bed would do the same job
You tend to lose a lot of flexibility that way, but yes it can be done.

tusses wrote:I looked at the slot cutters and thought two things - 1st, you can make your own copies of moulding/beading details - 2nd, I thought , hmmmm. they look like they could come out whilst in use ! LOL
Could they be used safely for moulding / beading if I made a totaly enclosed 'tunnel' to feed the wood through ?

the whitehill blocks similar to above ?
You'll probably not find a tooling dealer who'll sell you the blanks to start with. It;'s obvious you've never seen a spindle moulder in use; tunnel guards simply don't work on them - you need a Shaw guard (something your machine doesn't have) to provide downwards/inwards pressure and even then in the event of a cutter being thrown it can exit in your direction. Safety specs won't protect you if that happens. Why can't you understand that old knackered, rusty tooling simply isn't safe and no amount of tinkering around the edges will ever make it so?

I'll give you an example. In the days of square blocks I was visiting a shop where the spindle was being used, with a scarificial fence plate and downpressure Shaw guard. There was a change in note on the spindle and the operator ducked. A few seconds later there was a loud bang. The cutter was found embedded 3in deep in a in a 150 year old solid pine beam about 20 feet away from the spindle moulder. As it exited it had smashed the Shaw guard wooden pad and removed a large piece of cast iron fence plate. This was the result of an over strained securing bolt having sheared. That's why old tooling can be a hazard - even if you choose to ignore advice on other aspects of it's safety.

tusses wrote:I'll do some googling, to see what the new style cutter blocks look like. Can you make your own tooling for the new ones ?
You can try, and manufacturers do supply blanks, but cutters need to be balanced and ideally you should use them with limiters, so I think you're on a hiding to nothing. See reply eleswhere for links, etc

tusses wrote:as for motor power - I had always thought a spindle moulder was used for its namesake 'moulding' so I hadn't considered cutting large rebates and tenons. so , I presume that if I use it to make mouldings and beadings etc it might be up to the job.
In that case you thought wrong. Rebates, mortises and tenons are very commonly produced on the spindle moulder. They are very common components in most pieces of work you'll ever use (although you won't necessarily find Norm doing things this way)

Scrit

tusses
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Post by tusses » Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:23 pm

gonna scrap most of it and make a router table ... pics to follow ;D

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Re: White spindle moulder

Post by Snickare85 » Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:58 am

Hi Guys!
this thread is quite old,but i´m very curious about this moulder´s brand,someone knows more about it?is still something easy to find?it looks a nice little machine,and with some proper tooling changes,could be something nice to have in a small shop, thanks and i hope to hear from you all soon..!what about the Tyzak also??every info and pictures will be appreciated!

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Re: White spindle moulder

Post by tusses » Sat Sep 05, 2015 9:46 pm

what's up with this thread ? unread posts says someone has posted .. but I can't see it ???

york33
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Re: White spindle moulder

Post by york33 » Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:17 pm

It's like reading through history.........have you still got it :-)

Wasn't me posting btw!

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Re: White spindle moulder

Post by promhandicam » Sun Sep 06, 2015 6:56 am

Rich, it's the post above yours by snickare85 that (in my wisdom / stupidity) I approved yesterday that is new.

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Re: White spindle moulder

Post by Snickare85 » Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:06 am

yes...quite old post..i was just wondering if someone can give me more info about this small spindle moulders,white and tyzak,i can´t find anything online...!

tusses
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Re: White spindle moulder

Post by tusses » Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:01 am

Cheers Steve .. makes sense now ! lol

No Dave, I broke it up.

I still have the tilting cast iron top and the fence.. as "they may come in usefull " one day :-)

a blast from the past ! how Naive I was back then lol even arguing with Scritt ! I mean, who is this guy, what does he know anyway ! lol

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Re: White spindle moulder

Post by jfc » Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:03 am

If you want a spindle for a hobby workshop i would go for a modern one like an axminster or the like . The Tyzak i had was under powered so had trouble cutting when running a modern block .
In their day they where probably great for running french cutters .

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Re: White spindle moulder

Post by Snickare85 » Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:50 pm

are this Tyzak still around?i would really like to see a picture of one of them,curiosity!

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