Cill block purchase

[thatsnotafestool]

Time to treat myself but which one?

Wealden
Whitehill
Trend

The Trend is about £50-60 cheaper than the Whitehill with the Wealden price half way between the two.

[cuttingsolutions]

cant see how you can do a price comparison.
the Whitehill heads are different to the Wealdon & Trend......which look like the same block to me.
Wealdon & Trend are offering 2 wing cutters with 8 mm radius
Whitehill list 4 wing & 2 wing with adjustable rad slots.
Whitehill are only 100 mm long.
and dont forget Wealdon is Inc VAT.

so do you want:
2, 3 or 4 wing
100 mm or 120 mm
straight or with radius
if radius do you want the position to be adjustable
aluminium or steel. (the steel heads are very heavy)

I might be able to get you an even better price

Doug


edit:
Another thing you might like to consider.
Wealdon 120 mm knives (or 110 they arent quite sure) are £20. Mine would be only £13.00

[thatsnotafestool]

Not fussed about having any radius.

120mm would be better but not if it was a silly price.

2 wing probably OK unless anyone says otherwise. Are 4 wings that much better? I'm not going to be making cills day in, day out - if that helps.

[jfc]

4 cutters gives you a cleaner cut .

[woodworker]

4 knives gives a faster feed speed, not necessarily a better cut, the tct knives have a slight adjustment clearance in the throat, so it depends how well you can set up the 4 knives.

FWIW if your not going to be making cills all the time, why not just buy a set of profile knives.

[cuttingsolutions]

4 knives gives a faster feed speed, not necessarily a better cut, the tct knives have a slight adjustment clearance in the throat, so it depends how well you can set up the 4 knives.

FWIW if your not going to be making cills all the time, why not just buy a set of profile knives.

4 knives will give a better finish at the same feed speed. or allow faster feed speed for the same finish.

there is no setting up of the knives. they seat against a back stop which does not alter. they are disposable TC (turnover) knives...not TCT



Price to follow for 150 x 100 x bore size Z=3 V=3 as I have always felt thats the best option for speed and finish....
having just quoted someone for 2 wing with a special radius tip i expect somewhere around £245 + VAT

[woodworker]

FWIW I have both 2 & 4 and you can't tell the difference in the real world. it's the feed speed that's the real advantage here imho.

If you don't hold them against the back of the throat as you tighten up the knives you'll definitely get a misalignment as the locating pins are smaller than the holes on the knives.

[jfc]

Mine are fixed in place by pins and cant say ive found they move although i will check ......

[cuttingsolutions]

FWIW I have both 2 & 4 and you can't tell the difference in the real world. it's the feed speed that's the real advantage here imho.

If you don't hold them against the back of the throat as you tighten up the knives you'll definitely get a misalignment as the locating pins are smaller than the holes on the knives.

the "locating pins" are supposed to be smaller than the holes. if they were the same size the pins would shatter the "fragile" carbide.
Its a standard method used on disposable knife cutterheads for more years than I care to recall. setting the knives of this type of cutterhead is simple.....
place the knife onto the wedge.
firmly push it against the bottom of the seating across its full length whilst tightening the three grub screws.....starting with the middle one which should not be fully tightened but enough to hole all in place....
you can judge it me "finger feel" ....you shouldnt need any setting devices.

as to the feed speed....sorry thats not correct.
most of these are "manual" feed operations and I defy anyone to feed at a constant and same rate each time.....thats the work of CNC machines.

as I already said........4 knives will give a better finish at the same feed speed. or allow faster feed speed for the same finish.

[cuttingsolutions]

Ok I now have a price.

150 mm diameter x 120 mm length Z=2 V=2
£190.00

150 mm diameter x 120 mm length Z=3 V=3
£216.00
+ carriage + VAT
Delivery 2 weeks.

[thatsnotafestool]

Z 3 V 3?

[woodworker]

the "locating pins" are supposed to be smaller than the holes. if they were the same size the pins would shatter the "fragile" carbide.
Its a standard method used on disposable knife cutterheads for more years than I care to recall.

I know that

setting the knives of this type of cutterhead is simple.....
place the knife onto the wedge.
firmly push it against the bottom of the seating across its full length whilst tightening the three grub screws.....starting with the middle one which should not be fully tightened but enough to hole all in place....

I know that

you can judge it me "finger feel" ....you shouldnt need any setting devices.

I never said you needed any setting device.

as to the feed speed....sorry thats not correct.

As I said originally, in the real world etc etc.

most of these are "manual" feed operations

These blocks are for use in manual or powerfeed.

and I defy anyone to feed at a constant and same rate each time.....thats the work of CNC machines. as I already said........4 knives will give a better finish at the same feed speed. or allow faster feed speed for the same finish.

Sorry, but In the real world you'd be pushed to tell the difference.

[cuttingsolutions]

Z 3 V 3?

Three cutting knives (Z=3) and three spurs (V=3).
Doug

[thatsnotafestool]

why not just buy a set of profile knives.

Who makes profile knives at this shallow angle or do you grind your own?

EDIT: having said that I must see if my moulder tilts (a) the right way and (b) far enough to use a straight knife.

[thatsnotafestool]

Z 3 V 3?

Three cutting knives (Z=3) and three spurs (V=3).
Doug

Thanks, Doug..I'm looking into profile knives as well as TBH they might be the most economic way forward at the moment.

[jfc]

9* with round over is cutter no2 and 9* is cutter no 3 Its the first shapes whitehill thought of after a wobbly one

[thatsnotafestool]

Thx ..but which path do I go down to get to see the same as you? Limiter? size of head? that sort of thing.

[cuttingsolutions]

Jason

those cutters are only 50 mm knives.
with the disposable knife system we were looking at 120 mm, presumably for doing big cill sections.
If he can tilt the spindle you could do the 50 mm and radius part with the spindle straight. then tilt 9* to do the rest with a straight block.

[thatsnotafestool]

Are there sleeves that I can put on my 30mm spindle to increase it up to 1.25" ?

[jfc]

Yes you can use sleeves or top hats to adjust the bore size .

[thatsnotafestool]

Something like this? http://www.whitehill-tools.com/product. ... uctID=1740 so i can fit a block that is 1.25 onto my 30mm spindle? I see this one is only 25mm long. Is that a problem given that most blocks are 40 - 50mm long?

[cuttingsolutions]

Thats a sleeve, which would be ok but if you wanted to take it out you would have a problem

what you can use is these http://www.whitehill-tools.com/product.aspx?ProductID=1737

top hats.
one each end of the block.
i have some in the stock cupboard £7.00 each.

[thatsnotafestool]

Ok I'll take 'em. Please can you pm me how you want paying. Thanks

[thatsnotafestool]

OK... I bought myself one off eBay...a Whitehill block. As I tried to pick it up, several things went through my mind. Because it is one heavy mother.

1) Will my spindle moulder actually run it up to speed?

2) Will it actually stop when I switch off ? In 10 seconds ?

3) Then when I unpacked it and wound the shaft up to its' maximum height, will it actually fit?

Answers...

3) It does fit..just. I'm not that sure what, if anything, that washer with the wee key thingy does that I normally use with the other blocks. 'Cos it won't fit with this baby.

1) I tightened it down. Then, bearing in mind what Jas's told me, I fixed down the top of the fence, double-checked the fence was locked down tight and then chickening out, slid both sacrifical fences over the front. And turned it on. Then ran to the other side of the workshop. Yes..it runs up to speed. Scary but yes, it works.

2) And it stops within 10 seconds....just.

But seriously, do you really expect me to use it in anger?

[jfc]

Cill blocks aint that loud You should try a super block with handrail cutters in it Now that loud

[jrm]

I'm not that sure what, if anything, that washer with the wee key thingy does that I normally use with the other blocks. 'Cos it won't fit with this baby.

When you say, "key", Roger, what does it key into? Does it locate onto the spindle in some way?

John

[thatsnotafestool]

Yes. This small key fits into a groove on the spindle. But since it doesn't have any corresponding roover to 'key' into any block, I can't quite see what/why

[jake]

It's a spacer isn't it, and the key is to stop it (and anything it is rubbing against) rotating under braking etc.

[jrm]

My thoughts exactly. Retaining nuts/bolts usually tighten in the opposite direction to the direction of rotation, to resist slackening but, with the introduction of braking, some kind of pin has to be included since a hefty block has a lot of momentum and could unwind itself when stopped suddenly. That's why I asked. I don't think it's wise to run the block without it (or some alternative).

John

[thatsnotafestool]

Mmmm... no room because the cill block takes up the entire spindle length.

[cuttingsolutions]

You could get a smallish keyway cut into the shaft and block
adding the key will help to stop any spinning.
you might need to get the block and shaft checked for balance after adding the keyways.

[thatsnotafestool]

There is a keyway already in the shaft. Thinking a bit more about this I think I do need to sort something out. If that block comes off then even a Chieftain tanks' body armour won't stop it!

[modernist]

I wouldn't alter the boss (it may be hardened for grinding)or keyway. If the block tapers upwards as they normally do there will be no upward forces tending to lift the block. If it takes the full 10 sec to stop there are no high retarding torques to loosen a tight clamping nut/bolt and, even if it did, the block would just spin harmlessly to a standstill.

I would make sure all mating faces are clean and free from dings (stone off as required), renew the fastening, make sure it is tight and do a test cut on some innocuous timber until you feel more confident. I don't see why there should be a problem.

Make sure the spindle speed is appropriate.

If we don't hear from you again you will know I was wrong

Seriously though I think if it all fits well and there is no excessive vibration when running it should be OK. Make sure the top hats are fully onto the shaft. I would not do it with any length of cap above the spindle top.

[thatsnotafestool]

..... I would not do it with any length of cap above the spindle top.

Thanks for the info, Brian. Not sure what you mean by the above.

[interchippy]

For my six penceworth on this. The block won;t loosen on a conventional spindle i.e. with a right hand threaded spindle, unless it has tremendous acceleration on starting!
If you take to heavier cut or jamb then the spindle nut will self tighten. so much so that it's a sod of a job to untighten it again.
I guess the reason you have a keyway on your spindle is that you can run it in reverse, as is the case in our M-power spindle.
We have run a cill block such as yours on a Sedgewick (no key way) for years the only problem has been getting the nut off after we've been cutting cills for two or three days.
Hope this helps and puts your mind ar rest. Happy window making!

[jrm]

I guess the reason you have a keyway on your spindle is that you can run it in reverse, as is the case in our M-power spindle.

It's also because of the introduction of braking hence you see retaining hole patterns on saw blades for the latest machines, for example. With the spindle, friction between the block and the retaining collar(s) above could, in theory, cause the nut to slacken when hard braking is applied with a heavy block on. I've no idea how likely this is in practice. I think that Brian is right though and the only likely outcome is a loose block which won't come off. It would probably get a bit warm though. If it is a threaded spindle, you could possibly add an additional, shallow nut on top.

John

[cuttingsolutions]

Careful guys

I have seen many cutterheads melted to the shaft because it started spinning.....and the heavier the block the more likely hood of it happening.

If there is a keyway on the shaft its an easy job to add keyway to the block (doesnt need to be full length....just match some of the shaft) then pop a key into gap.

Sorry.....the keyway is not so that you can run it in reverse....nice idea though.

[interchippy]

This is the top collar that is keyed. If the block isn't tightened down correctly or course it will spin. I agree if the block was keyed would stop it spinning on the shaft but this cill block isn't keyed nor are many spindle blocks with a 30mm or 1.25" bore. I don't even remember the old square blocks being keyed, not that I ever used one. Scared the s**t out of me, pushing all that air around. As I said before, provided that the block is correctly mounted no problem. Looking at the photograph the blocks aluminium anyway so not great inertia but if it does spin on the shaft it could weld itself on.
Interesting thread this

[modernist]

..... I would not do it with any length of cap above the spindle top.

Thanks for the info, Brian. Not sure what you mean by the above.

Just that to ensure maximum security the spindle protrudes, however little, above the upper top hat and then a spacer under the washer/nut. If the nut/washer was directly on the top hat it would be less supported and you would have more likelihood of it running out of true and vibrating and hence working loose.

[jfc]

I always bolt directly onto the top hat