Hammer A341 - Exraction?

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timbly
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Hammer A341 - Exraction?

Postby timbly » Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:34 pm

Hi
We recently brought a Hammer A341 (with silent power option) - nice bit of kit but that's for another day...

At present we're extracting with an old Scheppach HA26 and the extractor is perhaps not surprisinly struggling a bit..
We need to upgrade the extractor but at present don't really want to spend over the odds unless necessary.
We've looked at the Felder AF22, but with the 240v option and optional filter cartridge it comes in at £1414 inc. vat & delivery - I'm sure this is a good bit of kit but it comes in a bit on the expensive side.
The next option for consideration is the AF14, Felder's single bag option which they assure me has enough suck to handle the A341. With the fine filter this comes in at £970 (inc, vat and delivery) - not cheap for a single bag unit but with a healthy airflow capacity of 2350 m3/h - supposedly with the 120mm pipe diameter common to most Hammer/Felder gear.
Then come the Axminster options - I've discounted the hobby versions (possibly unfairly??) as this will be in everyday 'trade' use.
The UB-803 twin bag extractor seems like a reasonable option at £1062 inc of 2 filter cartridges. This is quoted as 3000 m3/h on 200mm, so should still be OK on 100 or 120mm piping (dependent on reducer options..)..?
The final and cheapest option is the Axminster UB-802 single bag trade extractor currently available at £684 inclusive of fine filter cartridge - this has a quoted airflow of 2000 m3/h at 150mm so not too sure if it will have enough suck on 100/120mm piping??.

To be honest I'm tempted to go with the cheapest option (Axi UB-802) as a temporary solution but am worried it won't have enough suck. The twin bag options have more suck and while more expensive might be suitable for incorporating into a ducted system in the future..

I'm keeping the old Scheppach and will use that to extract from the saw/spindle (Felder KF700). Again probably underpowered but will enable us to keep the planer chippings separate from the finer saw waste. I have an outlet for disposal of the planer shavings but not the fine stuff so want to keep them separate .

Any thoughts/suggestions on any of the above appreciated…
Thanks Tim

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Re: Hammer A341 - Exraction?

Postby Chems » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:23 pm

If your considering the Axminster UB-802 then what about this:

http://www.kendaltools.co.uk/cgi-bin/tr ... d_SIP01954

I have one, its a 2.2kw 3hp motor so a good bit better than the UB-802 which is 1.5kW. Its got great suction.

You should be able to get a fine filter cartridge for it, even if you can't find an exact one buy the best you can and make some MDF rings to make it fit right. I don't think it says online what the diameter of the drum is, but I made a ring for mine last week and I'm sure it was a 480mm diameter ring I was making.

As for the 2 bag issue, you should either buy or make a Cyclone and hook it up to either 1 or 2 drums. I run a small company making Cyclone kits. And we don't list it on the site but we can make 150mm or 120mm Cyclone on special order for people. They are fun to put together as they are quite large but the few joinery companies we've supplied them to have been really happy.

HTH!

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Re: Hammer A341 - Exraction?

Postby Mr Ed » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:57 pm

I'm looking at similar options at the moment as my old Axi ADE1200 can't handle the Hammer A3-31 or the spindle. I'm struggling to see the right option, but I thought the UB802 might be OK.

I'll be interested to see what people think.


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Re: Hammer A341 - Exraction?

Postby karl » Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:24 pm

I've got the single bag version of the one Steve has linked to. It has great suction - I have it attached to the ts and spindle.

But....

The cartridge filter doesn't make an airtight seal with the body of the extractor. I had to silicone mine. It is also impossible to get an airtight seal on the waste sack. I had to foil tape mine in place.

Axminster's response to these problems? "We sell more expensive extractors which have better build quality". Great - but why sell an extractor with a 1 micron filter which pi**es dust all over the place :lol:

Cheers

Karl

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Re: Hammer A341 - Exraction?

Postby Chems » Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:45 pm

Mr Ed wrote:but I thought the UB802 might be OK.


I don't understand why anyone would buy that machine, its nearly double the price of other more powerful single bag machines on the market (see my other link). Is it one of Axy's funny price inflations or is there something special about it I'm missing?

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Re: Hammer A341 - Exraction?

Postby The Wood Butcher » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:16 am

Mr Ed wrote:I'm looking at similar options at the moment as my old Axi ADE1200 can't handle the Hammer A3-31 or the spindle. I'm struggling to see the right option, but I thought the UB802 might be OK.

I'll be interested to see what people think.


Funnily enough I'm finding my ADE1200 is more than enough for my A3-26, I think the Silent Power cutter block makes easier chips to extract.

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Re: Hammer A341 - Exraction?

Postby timbly » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:49 am

Thanks for the replies.
The SIP extractor from Kendal tools certainly looks impressively spec'd. I've had SIP kit before and usually the quality regards fit and finish is OK'ish.. what's the SIP 01954 like regards bag changes and what's the quality of the bag retaining clip like?
I don't understand why Axminster have made their Trade options lower spec'd than their hobby machines. I'm assuming the fit and finish on the Trade options must be far superior…
Karl's experience with the single bag Axi hobby machine rules them out for me. I want a machine that performs properly out of the box. As Karl says; 'why sell an extractor with a 1 micron filter which pi**es dust all over the place'….
Anybody have experience with either of the Felder options??
I'll try posting this on 'the other side' as well to see what folks think over there.
Tim

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Re: Hammer A341 - Exraction?

Postby jfc » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:01 pm

Ive got the older version of the one steve (prom ) linked to and it has no problems with the wadkin surfacer , thicknesser and spindle . Or the tenoner .

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Re: Hammer A341 - Exraction?

Postby Chems » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:06 pm

timbly wrote:what's the SIP 01954 like regards bag changes and what's the quality of the bag retaining clip like?


Its very good, it comes with these little clips on the machine that you can hook the bag into that holds it in place while you get the strap around. The strap is no longer a metal one but more of a plastic one like you see on packaging, its a lot nicer to use and is spring loaded. Its a good bit of kit I've been happy with mine. But it lives on the wall now and I never take the bags on or off. Need to get a 1 or 0.5 micron filter cartridge for it next. :

Image

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Re: Hammer A341 - Exraction?

Postby karl » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:35 pm

I remember seeing another set-up similar to that.....

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Re: Hammer A341 - Exraction?

Postby Doug » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:13 pm

That sip looks the same as the old Axi 2200 which I have, probably made in the same factory.

I only get dust coming out from the fine filter connection when the meeting faces are dirty or misaligned.

The worst escape of dust was round the toggle clamp on the strap that holds the waste sack, I cured that by putting foam rubber around the shoulder of the machine & securing the sack to this with string that is twisted rather than knotted

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Re: Hammer A341 - Exraction?

Postby Chems » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:23 pm

karl wrote:I remember seeing another set-up similar to that.....


Ever since I saw yours its been on my list of things to do. I think its probably taken me about 2 years to do it! I know quite a few CycloneCentral customers have done the same, your a true trend setter!

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Re: Hammer A341 - Exraction?

Postby jfc » Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:47 am

securing the sack to this with string that is twisted rather than knotted



Sounds painfull :o

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Re: Hammer A341 - Exraction?

Postby Mr Ed » Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:42 pm

I rang SIP this afternoon, because I just couldn't believe that the 01954 (which as far as I can see is the old Axi ADE2200) did 6963 m3/hr as several websites are saying...and sure enough it doesn't. It actually does 2526 m3/hr which is far more believable- the other number was a printing mistake in their last catalogue and is still being quoted by people.

All that said, it still looks like a good machine for the price and capacity - World of Power seem cheap, have free delivery and have 5% off during January...I'm tempted.

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Re: Hammer A341 - Exraction?

Postby Chems » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:11 pm

Yeah its a powerful machine. I never pay any heed to those figures, mainly cause they don't mean anything to me but also because they all measure them differently. I read somewhere that some do it with bags off, some do it with no hoses but some do it as you'd use it. So they aren't comparable. I just go by the motor power.

Even with 5% off at World of Power its still cheaper here and has free delivery:

http://www.kendaltools.co.uk/cgi-bin/tr ... d_SIP01954

Got mine from there they were helpful on the phone.

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Re: Hammer A341 - Exraction?

Postby timbly » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:15 pm

Hi Ed
Thanks for the info regards the SIP.
2500m3/h puts it in the mix with the Axi machines although somewhat cheaper than their trade offerings.
Still tempted by the Felder.. As usual my taste in machinery doesn't quite match the thickness of my wallet..
Keep me posted if you get the SIP.
Tim

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Re: Hammer A341 - Exraction?

Postby jake » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:38 pm

Chems wrote:Yeah its a powerful machine. I never pay any heed to those figures, mainly cause they don't mean anything to me but also because they all measure them differently. I read somewhere that some do it with bags off, some do it with no hoses but some do it as you'd use it. So they aren't comparable. I just go by the motor power.


Motor power is equally subject to specsmanship though.

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Re: Hammer A341 - Exraction?

Postby Doug » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:46 pm

jake wrote:
Chems wrote:Yeah its a powerful machine. I never pay any heed to those figures, mainly cause they don't mean anything to me but also because they all measure them differently. I read somewhere that some do it with bags off, some do it with no hoses but some do it as you'd use it. So they aren't comparable. I just go by the motor power.


Motor power is equally subject to specsmanship though.


+1 :P & fit a fine filter on an extractor & the specs are shot to pieces :|

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Re: Hammer A341 - Exraction?

Postby Mr Ed » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:45 pm

Well I decided to take a punt on the SIP 01954, on the basis that it can only be better than my current 0.75kW machine. I'll let you know...

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Re: Hammer A341 - Exraction?

Postby Mr Ed » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:45 pm

I received the SIP machine, and its pretty much as expected. Its not of the highest quality manufacture, but good enough, and in my assessment the same as the Axminster alternatives.

I've been using it with the filter bag, which has worked well, but I wanted to upgrade to a fine filter cartidge so the output air is cleaner. This one from Axminster fits perfectly; http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-aw ... rod781189/

Image

Not used it yet with the cartridge on, so hard to say what effect that will have on suck - I expect it to reduce a bit, but it was pulling more than adequate anyway.

I've found that the standard 30" bags from AE Taylor are an absolute perfect fit on it as well, which is useful to know.

Ed

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Re: Hammer A341 - Exraction?

Postby timbly » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:12 pm

Hi Ed
Thanks for the update..
Still undecided here but really need to make a decision soon.
If you get the time let us know how you get on once you start using it with the filter..
Again thanks
Tim

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Re: Hammer A341 - Exraction?

Postby Chems » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:00 pm

Mr Ed wrote: what effect that will have on suck - I expect it to reduce a bit, but it was pulling more than adequate anyway.


I think actually while the filter is clean you'll get a slight increase in performance as a fine filters pleats offers more surface area than the standard bag and can allow a quick exhaust. I'm not 100% on this maybe some else is. You want to get yourself a separator of some sort thein or cyclone as I found my extractors fine filter just got blinded way too quick with the majority of the waste going in.

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Re: Hammer A341 - Exraction?

Postby Mr Ed » Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:46 am

Chems wrote:
Mr Ed wrote: what effect that will have on suck - I expect it to reduce a bit, but it was pulling more than adequate anyway.


I think actually while the filter is clean you'll get a slight increase in performance as a fine filters pleats offers more surface area than the standard bag and can allow a quick exhaust. I'm not 100% on this maybe some else is. You want to get yourself a separator of some sort thein or cyclone as I found my extractors fine filter just got blinded way too quick with the majority of the waste going in.


I did notice initially that with the fine cartridge on the waste bag seemed to be less pressurised, so I initially surmised that the machine was sucking less. However, having thought about it I came to the conclusion that it could equally be that the new filter was rejecting the air more efficiently than the cloth filter bag and that was the reason. Based on a totally unscientific 'hand in front of the cowl' test on the spindle moulder I think it is sucking slightly less, but still enough. I need to do some proper usage testing to find out - ultimately if it still sucks enough to get the crap into the bag I'm not too concerned how much if sucks, or if it sucks less.

Re cyclones etc, just at the moment I don't really want to spend any more or take up any more floor space. The filter can be cleaned easily enough and at £1 a go I'm happy to fill bags and chuck them away.

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Re: Hammer A341 - Exraction?

Postby George Fisher » Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:38 pm

How's the new extractor working out. I'm looking at the same setup to run a small ducted system with 3/4 outlets but only 1 at a time.

It seems like a pretty good value option for fine filtering and decent suction. Any problems??

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Re: Hammer A341 - Exraction?

Postby timbly » Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:45 pm

Quick update.
Finally got the AF22 - skipped on the wheels and went with the included 1 micron bag to keep the price down a bit.
Really powerful machine which should work well at the core of a ducted system in the future..
Typically once we got this a couple of Felder RL 125 Clean air extractors appeared on Ebay at reasonable prices - never mind, the AF22 works well and hopefully will prove to be a good investment.
Tim

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SIP 01954 3hp Dust Extractor - Power drawn

Postby Lachlan » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:09 am

Has anyone measured the power draw of the SIP 01954. My one is only drawing about 650 Watts when fitted with a fine filter cartridge, which seems very low for a 3hp motor and a 12 inch impeller.
Thanks
Lachlan


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