Hammer

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Re: Hammer

Postby woodsmith » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:58 am

Tim can you return the machine as faulty and get a refund?
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Re: Hammer

Postby timbly » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:42 am

Hi Woodsmith
We're talking to support in Austria today so we'll see how it plays out..
Don't really want a refund, just a machine that works as it should.
The support guy explained that you can expect a small, almost undetectable, scallop pattern runnning the length of the board but obviously ours is outside that tolerance.
Dougs machine is working well with the same technology and we should be getting the same results..
I researched this pretty thoroughly before buying and couldn't find any negative comments regarding the Silent Power block. I did find some older threads reporting similar problems with the Byrd spiral heads but these tended to be from several years back. The general concensus seemed to be that spiral block technology works well..
Apart from the scalloping the machine is a nice bit of kit.
Tim

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Re: Hammer

Postby mark270981 » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:49 pm

timbly wrote:Apart from the scalloping the machine is a nice bit of kit.
Tim


:lol: so apart from the fact it doesn't do as it should its a wonderful bit of kit
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Re: Hammer

Postby woodsmith » Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:10 pm

It sounds like a manufacturing fault to me and I wouldn't be surprised if the only cure was to replace the entire block assembly. If they won't do that get your money back and buy another one.
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Re: Hammer

Postby Doug » Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:58 pm

To be honest if i`d have read the usage & maintenance manual for the silent cutter block before placing my order I`d have thought twice about going for it.

It states.

"Since this is a multipoint cutting tool, slight ripples or slight longitudinal grooves may occur on the planed surface.
The surface finish depends on the care taken during the change of the carbide inserts, the depth of cut, the feed speed, the type of wood & the grain direction.
Slight ripples or longitudinal grooves are system related & do not constitute a defect.
If a flawless, smooth surface is required, the work piece has to be sanded after planing"

That said I`ve never had a thicknesser that gave a finished surface that didn`t need some further attention.

It then goes on to list possible application errors & solutions, but these in the main relate to correct installation, good cleaning or not turning single cutters rather turning the whole set.

After all that, mine does seem so far to give an excellent finish. I also did a fair bit of research before ordering & didn`t find anyone with a bad word to say about them. I`ll happily keep updating this thread as the thicknesser is used more & report on how the tips are bearing up.

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Re: Hammer

Postby senior » Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:18 pm

Not knocking it but I love tersa blades. so quick to change
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Re: Hammer

Postby mattty » Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:34 pm

senior wrote:Not knocking it but I love tersa blades. so quick to change


I still duck behind my machine when i switch it on after a blade change :lol:
Cheers, Matt.

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Re: Hammer

Postby modernist » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:11 pm

AFAICS the surface can be no more scalloped than any two bladed block. There may be microscopic lines between the cutters but, as Doug says, you expect a bit of finishing after the thicknesser. I can see if you change the tips and do not clean the surface properly you may run into trouble but that is just good practice. If there are scallops maybe there is a bearing or balance problem.
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Re: Hammer

Postby timbly » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:46 pm

Thanks for posting the info you got with your machine Doug. Strange that we got no info. with ours and that the UK support team had no documents other than German copies.
We've turned the entire set of blades to a new cutting edge with no difference to the cut so unless we've got a duff set of blades the fault must lie elsewhere.
We've sent images of the finish we're getting to Felder in Austria and will see where they want to take this next..
We would never expect to get a finished surface off the P/T but the need to sand back aggressively from 80 grit seems a bit excessive from a technology Felder advertise as giving a superior finish..
Tim

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Re: Hammer

Postby jake » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:08 pm

modernist wrote:AFAICS the surface can be no more scalloped than any two bladed block.


Is that right? With the skew, you presumably have a load of length-wise scallops as well as the width-ways ones.

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Re: Hammer

Postby modernist » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:31 pm

jake wrote:
modernist wrote:AFAICS the surface can be no more scalloped than any two bladed block.


Is that right? With the skew, you presumably have a load of length-wise scallops as well as the width-ways ones.


Yes but the difference compared to a straight knifed block is surely tiny.

It's a bit late in the day for fancy trig :lol:
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Re: Hammer

Postby Doug » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:35 am

Let us know how you get on Tim.

When I was looking into getting the spiral block I chatted to my engineer mate about it, I was told they used this technology in engineering for years & he was surprised it had taken so long to bring it to wood machining.
Hopefully he`ll be over this way soon so I`ll explain the scalloping issue when he`s having a gander at the new machine & see if he can come up with any solutions.

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Re: Hammer

Postby nickw » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:21 am

[2p]

I thought that in the original photo the scallops looked like they were 1 cutter wide. I thought the block had (at least) 2 rows of cutters and that they were offset from each other across the width. If the scallops really are 1 cutter wide with a gap between then it would indicate to me that the beds of one row of cutters were on a larger radius than the other - i.e. a manufacturing error in the block.

[/2p]
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Re: Hammer

Postby mikeb » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:08 am

Yet another opinion.

From what I can see from Doug's pics and the Felder Silent Power leaflet, it looks to me like the inserts are mounted at a slight angle to the rotational axis of the block, meaning that the inserts overlap slightly, hence removing the longitudinal cutter marks.

Problem is, unless the insert seats are machined with a compound angle, then one corner of the insert will be slightly higher than the other leaving longitudinal ripples. From the pics it appears the seats are machined with a compound angle but it would be my guess that there is a very small error here which is causing the problem.

Seems to me that whilst this type of block does have some real benefits, it is also very reliant on mega accurate machining and also very accurate inserts; as if they are slightly out of square or vary in thickness then ripples will be left behind...

It will be interesting to see if issues appear on previously perfect blocks when only a few inserts are replaced (rather than the whole lot) as the new ones will presumably be from a different batch and may vary very slightly from the rest.

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Re: Hammer

Postby timbly » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:17 am

Hi all
Thanks for some really insightful replies.

We've got a Felder engineer coming next week with a new set of blades. I'm not convinced this is the problem and wonder if, as others have suggested, we've got a faulty block..
I'm hoping they don't try and say this is within acceptable tolerances..

Here's some images of what we're getting - am I being fussy??

Image

Image

Image

As Nick and Mike suggest (if i understand correctly) the path of the 2 cutter rows should overlap and hence with an accurately milled block the machining lines should cancel each other out or at least be narrower and much less noticable..
Doug, your engineer friends input might well be helpful - thanks..
Tim

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Re: Hammer

Postby karl » Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:05 pm

That doesn't look acceptable to me - have Hammer/Felder seen those pics?

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Re: Hammer

Postby noel » Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:37 pm

I get better finish from a 2 blade lunchbox model. Unacceptable. Hope you get it sorted.

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Re: Hammer

Postby Mr Ed » Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:14 pm

The pic with the square says it all, that can't be right.

If I understand it correctly, the spiral is like a double helix, presumably meaning that each rotation of the block presents 2 different tips to the wood for any given concentric circle, albeit one tip offset to the other. That being the case, one of the helix's only needs to be machined slightly shallower and one tip would stand proud, causing the scalloping.

I presume that the centre of a tip on one helix coincides with the gap between 2 tips on the opposing helix - I can see how that could lead to scallops if one helix was high to the other.

Or that might all be b*ll*cks... :lol:

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Re: Hammer

Postby woodsmith » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:17 pm

If you are lucky it may just be they fitted tips from two batches, one set slightly smaller than the other.
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Re: Hammer

Postby timbly » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:08 pm

woodsmith wrote:If you are lucky it may just be they fitted tips from two batches, one set slightly smaller than the other.


Keith that would be the ideal outcome. We'll see.......
Tim

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Re: Hammer

Postby mattty » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:47 pm

timbly wrote:
woodsmith wrote:If you are lucky it may just be they fitted tips from two batches, one set slightly smaller than the other.


Keith that would be the ideal outcome. We'll see.......
Tim


That seems plausible. Is it worth taking one of each side and checking with an accurate vernier gauge? Or check the height of the blades on each side of the block from the table with a dial gauge setup.
Cheers, Matt.

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Re: Hammer

Postby nickw » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:51 pm

The whole point of those tips is that they do not vary enough between batches to make any noticeable difference.
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Re: Hammer

Postby Mr Ed » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:54 pm

nickw wrote:The whole point of those tips is that they do not vary enough between batches to make any noticeable difference.


I agree, to my mind it must be the machining of the groove they sit in

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Re: Hammer

Postby mattty » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:58 pm

Mr Ed wrote:
nickw wrote:The whole point of those tips is that they do not vary enough between batches to make any noticeable difference.


I agree, to my mind it must be the machining of the groove they sit in


Maybe a forklift truck bumped into the cnc when it was machining the cutter block?

The tips and block accuracy should be relatively easy to check though with some basic engineering gauges?
Cheers, Matt.

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Re: Hammer

Postby gazza » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:22 pm

timbly wrote: am I being fussy??



Image



:o :shock: Certainly not !! thats shite !!
Always seems to be more horror stories with Felder / Hammer than success stories.
Hope you get it sorted quickly.

Cheers,
gazza.

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Re: Hammer

Postby mark270981 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:27 pm

Just tell them to change the machine out as you're not happy and if happens again you want a refund.
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Re: Hammer

Postby karl » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:31 pm

As a side thought, I understood that Hammer/Felder perused the forums on a regular basis, in the same way that Axi are very active over there. I imagine that this sort of experience would put quite a few people off investing in the spiral block, and maybe even the brand.

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Re: Hammer

Postby thatsnotafestool » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:49 pm

Yes, I'm definitely having second thoughts.
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Re: Hammer

Postby Mr Ed » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:53 pm

karl wrote:As a side thought, I understood that Hammer/Felder perused the forums on a regular basis, in the same way that Axi are very active over there. I imagine that this sort of experience would put quite a few people off investing in the spiral block, and maybe even the brand.


I don't know about the spiral block, but I've not got any complaints about my Hammer P/T

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Re: Hammer

Postby modernist » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:08 pm

Well, if they peruse the forum, which they certainly have in the past, they are keeping very quiet.

Are you there Dylan, Russell?
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Re: Hammer

Postby mark270981 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:15 pm

Lol sounded like that ghost hunter fella off the tv

Fwiw i am happy with my hammer pt
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Re: Hammer

Postby Mr Ed » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:17 pm

modernist wrote:Are you there Dylan, Russell?


If you are, please stop ringing me up every time I look at something on the website :lol:

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Re: Hammer

Postby promhandicam » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:25 pm

Tim, does the distance between the high points correspond with the width of a cutter? To me they look to be wider than the width of a cutter.

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Re: Hammer

Postby timbly » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:39 pm

Steve the grooves exactly match the cutter width..

I'm not saying the Hammer P/T or the Silent Power system are necessarily bad - i'm just reporting on our poor experience..
Doug and others are obviously happy with their purchases.
We appear to have a wrong-un and the real test is how well Felder sort things for us.
I'll keep the post updated as things progress.
Thanks for everyones input.
Tim

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Re: Hammer

Postby promhandicam » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:45 pm

timbly wrote:Steve the grooves exactly match the cutter width..

I'm not saying the Hammer P/T or the Silent Power system are necessarily bad - i'm just reporting on our poor experience..
Doug and others are obviously happy with their purchases.
We appear to have a wrong-un and the real test is how well Felder sort things for us.
I'll keep the post updated as things progress.
Thanks for everyones input.
Tim



Then it must be a problem with the actual cutter head as it would appear from Dougs photos that the two helix's are machined in such a way that the cutters overlap each other.

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Re: Hammer

Postby Mr Ed » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:32 pm

promhandicam wrote:
timbly wrote:Steve the grooves exactly match the cutter width..

I'm not saying the Hammer P/T or the Silent Power system are necessarily bad - i'm just reporting on our poor experience..
Doug and others are obviously happy with their purchases.
We appear to have a wrong-un and the real test is how well Felder sort things for us.
I'll keep the post updated as things progress.
Thanks for everyones input.
Tim



Then it must be a problem with the actual cutter head as it would appear from Dougs photos that the two helix's are machined in such a way that the cutters overlap each other.


That's the conclusion I came to

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Re: Hammer

Postby PAC » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:56 pm

If you can remove the rear roller you could do a low tech test by setting the bed so that a piece of machine 2x1 laid on the bed is just touching a cutter on one helix and then rotate the block. If it is set correctly the second row should equally just touch. If it misses or hits the timber you will see the problem if you then swapped the two or three cutters that are aligned with your test timber and repeat the test you could work out if it is the cutters or the machining of the block that is wrong

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Re: Hammer

Postby mcluma » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:04 am

I think that the planer bed is the problem

if the bed is just a few seconds out then the second row of cutters will be with a constant feedrate lower then the wood

so when you take the cutterhead and turn-it by hand all cutters could touch the wood but when you feed the wood under constant speed through the machine and if the bed is out (not level) the second row of cutters could miss the wood entirely

so as a test slow down the feed rate by holding the wood back, and see what the result is

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Re: Hammer

Postby Mr Ed » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:33 am

How about drawing across the edge of every tip with a marker pen, running a small bit of material through and then looking at the tips to see where the pen has worn off. That might provide some clues.

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Re: Hammer

Postby modernist » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:42 am

Is there no response from the Milton Keynes Vatican yet?
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