Hammer

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Re: Hammer

Postby noel » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:40 pm

Might be too windy for white smoke?

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Re: Hammer

Postby Doug » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:40 pm

Looking at your photo Tim each scallop looks to be the width of a tip.

If you look at these photos you can see that the tips are offset on either row by about half a tip width, on the first photo the tip is about half a tip away from the edge of the block, in the second about one tip from the edge.

Image

Image

So I would expect any scallop to be only half a tips width, yours look wider which suggest to me that only one set of your tips are cutting ?

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Re: Hammer

Postby timbly » Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:18 pm

Hi all
Thanks for the continued interest.

An engineer is coming out next week.
After sending them the same images that we shared here we recieved an email from Austria stating;

"A light wavey surface is allowed, but we will have to check this on your timber. So the engineer will do this when he is at your workshop"

What they classify as "a slight wavey surface" is anyones guess but the responses I've had here would suggest our results fall outside most folks definition of slight..

Hopefully next weeks visit will see a speedy resolution to our problems.
Tim

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Re: Hammer

Postby cncpaul » Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:04 pm

timbly wrote:

"A light wavey surface is allowed



No it's not
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Re: Hammer

Postby PAC » Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:42 pm

timbly wrote:"A light wavey surface is allowed"


They would not sell many with this advertising slogan! Anyone want to try it with their clients!

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Re: Hammer

Postby modernist » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:55 pm

It is clearly wrong and I hope they sort it out quickly. Unfortunately I have experienced Hammer service at a less than perfect level although that was a while ago. I don't like the sound of their opening line which is why I point that out. Tell them to let you know when it's sorted.
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Re: Hammer

Postby George Fisher » Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:21 am

If they'd like a photo of some perfectly smooth timber coming out of my 45+ year old Sedgewick as something to aim for let me know.

I really hope they don't put that in the 'acceptable' pile.

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Re: Hammer

Postby thatsnotafestool » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:05 am

timbly wrote:Hi all
Thanks for the continued interest.

An engineer is coming out next week.
After sending them the same images that we shared here we recieved an email from Austria stating;

"A light wavey surface is allowed, but we will have to check this on your timber. So the engineer will do this when he is at your workshop"

What they classify as "a slight wavey surface" is anyones guess but the responses I've had here would suggest our results fall outside most folks definition of slight..

Hopefully next weeks visit will see a speedy resolution to our problems.
Tim


What is the point of a thicknesser that can only deliver a light wavey surface?
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Re: Hammer

Postby Mr Ed » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:57 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:
timbly wrote:Hi all
Thanks for the continued interest.

An engineer is coming out next week.
After sending them the same images that we shared here we recieved an email from Austria stating;

"A light wavey surface is allowed, but we will have to check this on your timber. So the engineer will do this when he is at your workshop"

What they classify as "a slight wavey surface" is anyones guess but the responses I've had here would suggest our results fall outside most folks definition of slight..

Hopefully next weeks visit will see a speedy resolution to our problems.
Tim


What is the point of a thicknesser that can only deliver a light wavey surface?


Well without getting into a semantics debate, every thicknesser is going to give a wavy surface to some degree, it's a question of how much. This example is too much, but there's always going to be some waviness, even when it's fixed within spec.

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Re: Hammer

Postby 9fingers » Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:16 am

I can't help wondering if spiral blocks are just a way to flog large numbers of carbide inserts.

As Ed says the surface form a conventional block is bound to have some fine scalloping and intermittent cuts will be noisier.

Breaking up the blade into a number of section and then forming them into a spiral to get over the problems straight lines would cause seems counter intuitive and the result is swapping one sort of scalloping for another however fine.

It will be interesting to see how much they wriggle and fight on this one.

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Re: Hammer

Postby senior » Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:29 am

3 pages of speculation ..... I know, why not just wait and see what the Felder engineer says?
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Re: Hammer

Postby mrgrimsdale » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:01 am

9fingers wrote:I can't help wondering if spiral blocks are just a way to flog large numbers of carbide inserts.

As Ed says the surface form a conventional block is bound to have some fine scalloping ......
Yes but they diminish to nothing with faster block and slower feed. Whereas the inserts are not set parallel to the cutter axis and can't cut a flat surface at any speed, by definition. So perhaps it's a question of good enough, or not?

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Re: Hammer

Postby modernist » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:55 am

There are alternatives. I am very impressed with finish from the 4 knife block in the Felder. More and shallower cuts per rev has got to be a good thing and the quick change knives take away part of the b* ache of knives.
Cheers

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Re: Hammer

Postby jfc » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:01 am

senior wrote:3 pages of speculation ..... I know, why not just wait and see what the Felder engineer says?

3 pages since 3rd Feb ( when we where told about the problem ) is not bad while waiting to see what Felder do about it .
Do about it or should that be just have a look at it .

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Re: Hammer

Postby katellwood » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:40 pm

modernist wrote:There are alternatives. I am very impressed with finish from the 4 knife block in the Felder. More and shallower cuts per rev has got to be a good thing and the quick change knives take away part of the b* ache of knives.



+ 1

In addition with two feed speeds the slower feed speed creates a really smooth surface

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Re: Hammer

Postby noel » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:06 pm

Did the Ostrich speaking man ever turn up?

So, any update Tim?

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Re: Hammer

Postby timbly » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:05 pm

Hi all
Apologies for not posting sooner - we've been waiting for certain assurances from Felder…

Following a visit from a pleasant Felder engineer who was with us for several hours measuring everything and swapping blades in and out.. The bottom line was he couldn't really find any reason for the results we've been getting although he agreed they were definitely unacceptable. Strangely when he swapped the cutters out for a new set the cut was markedly even worse. The fact that the cut was worse with a replacement set was slightly worrying and suggested that the blade sets are possibly not machined exactly identical.

Here’s a pic taken recently of a piece currently under construction – the machining lines as left by our Silent Power block are clearly visible in the Tulip wood drawer front..

Image

The powers that be in Milton Keynes are prepared to swap the machine for a new one although we'll have to wait until the end of March for a new one to be built. They haven’t got a 16" temporary replacement in stock so we decided to stick with ours until the new one is built.

We've tried to get assurances from Felder that the Silent Power is as good as advertised before choosing whether to get the replacement with the spiral or standard block. On March 4th we had a chat with a guy in Austria. After receiving a piece of wood which had been machined on our PT during the engineers visit as mentioned above he was of the opinion that our cut was outside acceptable tolerances on two small areas of the board only! Bit surprised by this as we considered the cut unacceptable across the width of the block - I leave you to make your own conclusions..
..but I guess from our point of view the bottom line is he agrees that the machine should be replaced.

The current deal is that they will deliver both a standard and spiral block machine to Milton Keynes. We will then make a 9 hour round trip to try both before making the final decision as to whether replace our current unit with either the demonstrated spiral or standard block..

Hopefully we will eventually get a satisfactory conclusion and we will be able to post a positive review of the A3 41 and the Silent Power block.

We are in discussions for a reasonable compensation so watch this space…
Again thanks for your interest and support.
Tim

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Re: Hammer

Postby thatsnotafestool » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:47 pm

Thanks for the update, Tim. Fingers crossed for you.

If you feel sufficiently strongly that their website is misrepresenting then the ASA is an option for you.
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Re: Hammer

Postby mattty » Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:27 pm

That sounds like you are getting some progress.
I don't remember seeing that furniture in the projects section on here...
Cheers, Matt.

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Re: Hammer

Postby modernist » Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:34 pm

That finish cannot be acceptable. I hope you are not going to experience a dose of Austrian intransigence.
Cheers

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Re: Hammer

Postby timbly » Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:18 pm

Brian apologies for any confusion.
The guy in Austria did not say the cut was acceptable. He said it was unacceptable but not in all places across the block.
We were somewhat surprised by this response but the bottom line is they will exchange our machine which for us is a positive outcome.
Hopefully the new machine will give us the results that others seem to be experiencing..
Tim

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Re: Hammer

Postby hammertime » Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:10 pm

Are tenoner has got the same kind of 6 inch heads. The original ones had long knives but was very noisy and smashed short grained timber to pieces. Atleast the new one is quieter and seems to produce cleaner tenons.
Ive just pushed a tenon through and thought I'd put a steel rule on it
Image

Wonder if its just a common thing with these types of cutter block. Least the shoulders fit- ish. Just mixing up a batch of gap filling glue :lol:

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Re: Hammer

Postby timbly » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:16 pm

Hi all
Went up to Milton keynes several weeks ago to try out a possible replacement Hammer A3 41 machine with the Silent Power block.
The results while definitely an improvement on our original machine were not perfect..
Our conclusion is that some form of the scallop effect running the length of the board is a necessary side effect of this technology. It is the extent of these scallop/striations and the effect on your working practice that is relevant.

Image

As you can see from the above picture of some cherry we machined on the new possible replacement machine whilst at felder HQ the striation pattern varies across the board. On the right, the lines are evenly spaced at half a cutter head width - this in my opinion demonstrates a perfectly engineered section of block. To the centre and left the striation pattern varies and while the spacing is not the width of each individual cutter head as with our original machine neither is the spacing representative of a perfectly engineered block. The above pattern is within Felder acceptable tolerances and i guess demonstrates that the machining tolerances are so exacting that a completely best possible cut from the technology is difficult to engineer.
I suppose the bottom line is what is acceptable for each user. For a joinery shop running thousands of board foot then the advantages of quietness and little breakout (note; you still do get some breakout and in our experience you can't just run boards without any consideration to grain direction) possibly outweigh the downside of the scallop lines. For a one man band cabinet maker running far less board foot and wanting an initial cleaner finish then perhaps that equation is reversed..

As stated in an earlier post the best possible solution is probably a standard 4 knife tersa block with variable feed speed - unfortunately our current finances do not run to this…

Following our visit we had the choice of replacing our original machine with the demonstrated spiral block or with a new standard block machine. We eventually decided to replace the Silent Power with a standard block machine. This was delivered this week and seems to give an excellent cut. It is a lot noisier though.

We would not necessarily rule out the Silent Power block if we upgrade in the future but would need to consider our requirements at that time..

Other than a few early hiccups Felder have been good to deal with. They offered a fair compensation and have been helpful throughout.
Tim

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Re: Hammer

Postby 9fingers » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:30 pm

Tim,

Thanks for following up on this topic. I can't see that I will ever be in a position to buy a new machine but certainly something to watch out for on a second hand machine as the performance is not likely to get better with age!

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Re: Hammer

Postby thatsnotafestool » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:46 pm

Good update. While browsing the Wealden site looking at spindle cutters they have a spiral planer

http://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/Onl ... r_609.html

It looks identical in concept to your spiral block and in their blurb they do warn about slight witness marks.
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Re: Hammer

Postby jrm » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:03 pm

Thanks for the update on this, Tim. I wonder how much of an improvement on tear-out there is over a standard knife. That sort of damage can be much more difficult to remove than those apparently subtle lines and it could easily be worth it from that point of view. It seems strange that Felder are making such a big thing about the noise advantage while hardly mentioning the potentially improved finish with trickier timbers. I just ordered one of these which are on offer at the moment http://www.felder-tooling.co.uk/8head-0 ... 07110.html I've got some large pieces of cherry to shape and that always seems to cause problems normally so it should be a good test. I do remember when I first looked into these years ago that I was told to expect 'witness' lines but that they were easily sanded out.

John

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Re: Hammer

Postby Peter Sefton » Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:59 pm

I tried the spiral cutter block a couple of months ago at felder UK in Milton Keynes and found it to be very quiet as they stated, I planed some Wenge and the finish was very clean, small witness marks with the grain but no tear out. I will be demonstrating it at my Open Day next month if any one would like to see it in action; the noise reduction has to be heard to be believed almost disconcerting :!:

Cheers Peter
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Re: Hammer

Postby Peter Sefton » Mon May 05, 2014 9:17 am

Wow a year has gone by and I have just been to felder again using the Silent Power Block but this time on some very demanding Quilted Maple, but this time we filmed it and its now on You Tube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyHi5d5aAEw

Cheers Peter
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Re: Hammer

Postby mark270981 » Mon May 05, 2014 9:27 am

We have spiral blocks on the four sider - not as easy to change the cutters like the hammer.

Just as a side note has anyone experienced problems with their a3 and the tensioner on then rollers snapping? We have had 2 sets break in 6 months
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Re: Hammer

Postby woodsmith » Mon May 05, 2014 10:53 am

mark270981 wrote:We have spiral blocks on the four sider - not as easy to change the cutters like the hammer.

Just as a side note has anyone experienced problems with their a3 and the tensioner on then rollers snapping? We have had 2 sets break in 6 months


No, I've had no problems, so far, with mine.
Keith

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Re: Hammer

Postby Peter Sefton » Mon May 05, 2014 11:13 am

Mark I have never had one break, and owned my A3 41 about 8 years, it's only been replaced once or twice as a service job but it sounds like your workshop is a lot more industrial than mine.
Cheers Peter
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Re: Hammer

Postby ondablade » Tue May 06, 2014 5:39 pm

Hi guys, hadn't seen this thread so just coming in (very) late to share some collected bits. I have an A3 410 with standard knives bought a few years ago only coming into service now - basically as a result of personal illness and a death in the family.

Judging by comment on US forums the insert based/silent power spiral cutter while quieter, saving set up, reducing tear out, producing more compact shavings (but maybe more dust?) and giving long life does leave some marks that can need sanding or planing out - as reportedly do other well regarded insert heads like the Byrd that have been around in the US for some time. The Felder version was reportedly developed to reduce the power demand (perhaps to make it suitable for smaller machines?), which might/might not be a factor too.

The question maybe boils down to what is acceptable and/or normal, and what the machine is delivering relative to this - and that depends on your needs. It seems pretty much inevitable that there will be some marks, in that inserts can surely (?) only form an approximation to a spiral. Cumulative tolerances and burnishing effects must be an issue too - it's fashionable to say that woodworking isn't a tight tolerance activity, but in a case like this microns probably matter. It seems as already concluded to be a case of biting the bullet on the noise and going for a traditional head if a different finish is needed off the machine. The 500-07-005 cobalt/HSS knives at £42 + VAT per set of three reputedly last 3-4 times as long as the stock ones.

There are more general issues that have been known to come up with these machines too. Including out of flat tables (the outfeed on mine has been pretty bad/mainly dished but also low at the cutter/it cut convex and wouldn't come right with normal adjustments. i got caught by the fact that the machine wasn't used for almost two years after delivery, and the to my mind unacceptably wide factory flatness tolerance specified. i'm most of the way through scraping them flat which has been very hard going), sometimes very rough machining of the tables with variable depth marks that can lead to less than easy feeding (they seem to be face milled - one common fix which Felder in the US reportedly recommend is to use an orbital sander and then wax), and potentially approximate set up from the factory. (the blade heights relative to each other were off)

It's not the most solidly built machine ever in some respects either - probably not ideal for heavy work. Against all that they seem to be capable of producing good work once set up right….

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Re: Hammer

Postby mark270981 » Tue May 06, 2014 8:13 pm

I don't it is built to stand upto industrial use, but it was all i could afford at the time. They are ok, I wouldn't purchase one again as would go for a decent second hand one - funnily enough all the used machinery I have bought have stood the test of time, where as the new and more expensive stuff hasn't!!
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