Lay on Doors or Framed Doors

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thekarter
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Lay on Doors or Framed Doors

Post by thekarter » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:17 am

Why do people go to the trouble of making a piece of furniture then fit ‘lay on doors’ in stead of taking a little more time and fitting ‘proper’ framed doors with ‘proper’ hinges?
I know there must be a reason but I don’t know it hence my question
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tusses
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Re: Lay on Doors or Framed Doors

Post by tusses » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:07 am

two completely different looks to start with !
Lots of customers don't like to see frames.

mailee
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Re: Lay on Doors or Framed Doors

Post by mailee » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:39 pm

Got to agree with Tusses. Most of my customers prefer not to see the frames and want soft close hinges.

Brad Naylor
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Re: Lay on Doors or Framed Doors

Post by Brad Naylor » Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:13 pm

I prefer to make my furniture with frames but when I offer my customers the choice of soft-close concealed hinges or butt hinges 99% opt for the soft-close.

Same with drawers - everyone these days wants soft close runners. I can't remember the last time I made 'traditional' drawers.

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Re: Lay on Doors or Framed Doors

Post by mailee » Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:13 pm

Yep, bang on Brad, same with all of my customers....especially women. :roll:

jake
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Re: Lay on Doors or Framed Doors

Post by jake » Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:15 pm

Framed = best for old fashioned fusty pants.

Roger-M
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Re: Lay on Doors or Framed Doors

Post by Roger-M » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:45 pm

jake wrote:Framed = best for old fashioned fusty pants.
Oi !!!! :lol:

Best for those that prefer traditional, homely appearance that won't date in 5 mins and need to be ripped out to be replaced by the latest space-age fad. No reason why a traditional looking kitchen can't contain the latest in soft-close etc tho'.
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Re: Lay on Doors or Framed Doors

Post by tomouse » Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:59 pm

Brad Naylor wrote:I prefer to make my furniture with frames but when I offer my customers the choice of soft-close concealed hinges or butt hinges 99% opt for the soft-close.

Same with drawers - everyone these days wants soft close runners. I can't remember the last time I made 'traditional' drawers.
Why not offer them framed with soft close?

http://www.trade-hinges.co.uk/soft-clos ... et-3-p.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Website: http://www.oaktree-mill.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Lay on Doors or Framed Doors

Post by promhandicam » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:08 pm

tomouse wrote: Why not offer them framed with soft close?

http://www.trade-hinges.co.uk/soft-clos ... et-3-p.asp
Nice to hear from you again Tom - from your website it sounds like you have been having fun since you last posted!

PS. On the Timber page of your site, it should be ensure not insure ;) - that's what comes from being married to an English teacher or the last 22 years!

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Re: Lay on Doors or Framed Doors

Post by jake » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:14 pm

Roger-M wrote:
jake wrote:Framed = best for old fashioned fusty pants.
Oi !!!! :lol:

Best for those that prefer traditional, homely appearance that won't date in 5 mins and need to be ripped out to be replaced by the latest space-age fad.
My gran has a lovely flat fronted Kandya mid-century classic kitchen in her house - must be 50 years old, looks very stylish to this day. She's 99 but not too fusty with it.

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Re: Lay on Doors or Framed Doors

Post by tomouse » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:27 pm

promhandicam wrote:
tomouse wrote: Why not offer them framed with soft close?

http://www.trade-hinges.co.uk/soft-clos ... et-3-p.asp
Nice to hear from you again Tom - from your website it sounds like you have been having fun since you last posted!

PS. On the Timber page of your site, it should be ensure not insure ;) - that's what comes from being married to an English teacher or the last 22 years!

Hi steve...... Yep has been a pretty amazing year and have settled into our new lives out here very well. Now just getting the business off the ground...

Cheers for the page correction, all sorted..... spelling is not my strong point :)
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Re: Lay on Doors or Framed Doors

Post by brandon » Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:06 pm

90 % off what i make is framed with soft close hinges and drawers, like this dresser i done this week, all olde worlde style but with modern fittings simples
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thekarter
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Re: Lay on Doors or Framed Doors

Post by thekarter » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:44 am

I understand that framed and unframed furniture have completely different looks.
I think there are a few cases when unframed furniture ‘works’ and framed would not, an excellent example is in the thread High Gloss Fitted Wardrobes by Brandon. The super smooth look and lines could be considered ultra modern or in deed ‘Art Deco’.

All the kitchen and bedroom furniture I was ever involved in professionally (I am now retired) were in frame so may be I am biased towards that style. When looking through magazines the low end kitchens and bedrooms are always with lay on doors ‘unframed’. I can think of B&Q, Home Base, Howdens, and many more but the high end Clive Christian, Mark Wilkinson, Turner and Foy, etc are always in framed. Look at threads on this site ‘Kitchen by jonnyd’, ‘Latest Kitchen From Armstrong Jordan by senior’, check out the http://www.armstrongjordan.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; web site – quality furniture.
Alan

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Re: Lay on Doors or Framed Doors

Post by jrm » Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:54 am

I seem to remember that the system was developed in Europe after the second world war in response to the enormous demand for reconstruction. 32mm seems an arbitrary figure and was probably down to the multi hole borers of the day. They could be made in factories and fitted on site very quickly and with largely semi-skilled labour and that still remains the case. Any lack of stiffness, and therefore dubious squareness, doesn't matter because even a child can adjust the overlaid fronts to line them up.Not that their isn't some very high quality furniture around using these systems but, generally, I think we would all admit it's quicker and cheaper and continues to be popular because of the demand for reasonable quality furniture, that has a life of 7 to 10 years, and is affordable enough to be discarded and replaced as fashion moves on. Having said that, the engineered fittings, panel products, edgebanding, etc. have come of age and the quality is miles ahead of even the product of 20 years ago. I remember laughing at the framed look with concealed hinges (rather than butts) appearing in B&Q, etc. as the trickle-down response to the likes of Smallbone. Horses for courses.

John

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Re: Lay on Doors or Framed Doors

Post by thekarter » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:18 am

John
It's interesting that you talk about furniture life span. Last year my daughter was asked if she would refinish a kitchen, it was a kitchen which I fitted 25 years ago, made of reclaimed pine with a limed finish. When she had completed the job I went to take a look and it looked just the same as when I fitted it. The only thing that had to be replaced was one draw runner. I thought that was pretty good considering the fact that it was a large farm house type kitchen complete with Aga. Quality lasts.
Alan

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Re: Lay on Doors or Framed Doors

Post by jake » Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:40 pm

jrm wrote:generally, I think we would all admit it's quicker and cheaper and continues to be popular because of the demand for reasonable quality furniture, that has a life of 7 to 10 years, and is affordable enough to be discarded and replaced as fashion moves on.
It looks better too. So much less now unnecessary fuss with stiles and rails and frames and beads and visible hinges. Never mind those ridiculous pillars and such.

Yes, you can cite lots of top end names who use frames. Blah to brand names, there are plenty of top end brand names who sell flat fronted stuff, Boffi, Poliform, etc. Says nothing about anything really, let alone anything qualitative about the merits of framed or unframed approaches. Bobby used to do very nice frameless stuff I seem to recall, but IIRC he couldn't compete on price with the high end Germans/Italians etc.

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Re: Lay on Doors or Framed Doors

Post by jake » Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:46 pm

As a postscript to the above, when I was planning my kitchen I went for a nosy around the Boffi showroom, at least then at Chelsea Harbour. It looked phenomenally badly made. Glitzy on the surface but dead cheapo otherwise.

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Re: Lay on Doors or Framed Doors

Post by Meccarroll » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:27 am

There is simply more choice now than ever before and it's not a bad thing either. I expect if you asked Senior to make a high end kitchen with lay on doors and concealed hinges, that's what he' do.........make a high end kitchen. I don't think the style of hinge would take away his ability to make a quality kitchen.

With so many new quality fittings being available, It's more down to the appearance you are after nowadays.

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Re: Lay on Doors or Framed Doors

Post by thekarter » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:52 am

jake wrote:
jrm wrote:generally, I think we would all admit it's quicker and cheaper and continues to be popular because of the demand for reasonable quality furniture, that has a life of 7 to 10 years, and is affordable enough to be discarded and replaced as fashion moves on.
It looks better too. So much less now unnecessary fuss with stiles and rails and frames and beads and visible hinges. Never mind those ridiculous pillars and such.

Yes, you can cite lots of top end names who use frames. Blah to brand names, there are plenty of top end brand names who sell flat fronted stuff, Boffi, Poliform, etc. Says nothing about anything really, let alone anything qualitative about the merits of framed or unframed approaches. Bobby used to do very nice frameless stuff I seem to recall, but IIRC he couldn't compete on price with the high end Germans/Italians etc.

So you are suggesting: - no stiles and rails - no frames - no beads - no ridiculous pillars.
If I understand you correctly you just want flat doors .
Alan

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Re: Lay on Doors or Framed Doors

Post by senior » Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:27 pm

jake wrote: Bobby used to do very nice frameless stuff I seem to recall, but IIRC he couldn't compete on price with the high end Germans/Italians etc.
Oh I think I can compete against Poggenpohl etc, it's not too hard when their kitchens are coming in at £100k plus. Mind you easy to do £50-60k on appliances.
Have a look at my facebook page and leave a comment or two.
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Re: Lay on Doors or Framed Doors

Post by Leveller2911 » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:14 pm

senior wrote:
jake wrote: Bobby used to do very nice frameless stuff I seem to recall, but IIRC he couldn't compete on price with the high end Germans/Italians etc.
Oh I think I can compete against Poggenpohl etc, it's not too hard when their kitchens are coming in at £100k plus. Mind you easy to do £50-60k on appliances.

Bobby, I recently worked on a property which had a Poggenpohl kitchen in it and I wasn't impressed at all. The carcases were 15mm thick, looked like Egger board and was fitted with basic Blum hinges ,not even soft close......

The worktops looked nice. They looked similar to a Ply but with an aluminium layer or two. Looked good but overall I was far from impressed.

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Re: Lay on Doors or Framed Doors

Post by jake » Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:53 pm

senior wrote:
jake wrote: Bobby used to do very nice frameless stuff I seem to recall, but IIRC he couldn't compete on price with the high end Germans/Italians etc.
Oh I think I can compete against Poggenpohl etc, it's not too hard when their kitchens are coming in at £100k plus. Mind you easy to do £50-60k on appliances.
Maybe it was brand cachet in that sector then? I'm sure I remember you saying you were focusing on framed because you were finding it difficult to compete on some level. I always really liked your frameless stuff and then you stopped posting any after a while, so I was interested in why that was, so it stuck, even if I have got the motivation wrong. I think.

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Re: Lay on Doors or Framed Doors

Post by senior » Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:03 am

jake wrote:
senior wrote:
jake wrote: Bobby used to do very nice frameless stuff I seem to recall, but IIRC he couldn't compete on price with the high end Germans/Italians etc.
Oh I think I can compete against Poggenpohl etc, it's not too hard when their kitchens are coming in at £100k plus. Mind you easy to do £50-60k on appliances.
Maybe it was brand cachet in that sector then? I'm sure I remember you saying you were focusing on framed because you were finding it difficult to compete on some level. I always really liked your frameless stuff and then you stopped posting any after a while, so I was interested in why that was, so it stuck, even if I have got the motivation wrong. I think.
Yes you are not far off it, it's basically because there is some good quality stuff out there at the lower end.
Have a look at my facebook page and leave a comment or two.
Or browse my website Hand made kitchens Essex

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