Kitchen

rhrwilliams · Post by **rhrwilliams** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:32 pm

Hi Team,

I have not bothered anyone with stupid questions in a while, so here goes. I am making my kitchen in Jan / Feb as I have some time off work. I want to make a face frame kitchen (basically like every other nice kitchen there is). I have been looking forward and thinking about this for nearly a year. Inspiration is basically any one of the many fantastic kitchens people have made on here, or something like this - http://www.firedearth.com/kitchens/shop ... eestanding

Im hoping that some of you will impart some of your knowledge upon me as I have not made a kitchen before and have already learnt the hard way a few things from making my mock ups... These questions I think are probably very very simple (simple if you know how that is...)

Firstly I originally turned my nose up at using MFC, and bought veneered MDF. I was very wrong and the MDF was awful (like cardboard, no fixing strength) and the MFC was actually far better than I expected. I also had no problems cutting it on my table saw (I bought a new superfine blade which I didn't even need). So Carcasses will be Oak or Ash coloured MFC, shelves lipped with beech.

I have made a mock up of the base unit and have done it with housing joints, wood screws , little legs on the front and adjustable legs on the back. There is also a plinth set back, This is because;
1) Its going on an uneven (floorboards) floor and I want height to be adjustable.
2) I don't like the idea of a plinth and want the look of freestanding units, but don't want food and crap going under the units either. You can see what I've done in the picture - stuck bit of mdf on the back.

Questions is, will this be strong enough , as essentially the unit weight will be relying on the fixings between the face frame and the carcass, I was planning to pocket screw face frame and biscuit it on (No festool domino here I'm afraid) . Is there a normal way this type of unit is usually done ?
Also do you need dedicated MFC screws ?
And when you fit the kitchen, will not being able to get underneath the unit cause problems ?

Secondly, in my mock up there is a gap on the inside of the door. Here my face frame is 50mm which is larger than the Fired Earth units (which is 25mm) , but in any event both units have face frames bigger than the carcass.

Question - What does one do with draws or if you have normal kitchen hinges ? Do you have to batton them out to be flush with the inside of the face frame ? I also wanted exposed dovetail sides of doors - you know the sort of thing.... what draw runners are usually used for this type of thing ?

Thanks for reading if you got this far and hopefully someone can help me as this is probably basic stuff that everyone knows except me !

Richard

Bighat · Post by **Bighat** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:56 pm

I'll give you my opinion as no one else has replied yet, but is by no means the only way.
1. I'm sure your way would be plenty strong enough, but I think it makes it hard work to get everything level, and having the plinth screwed from behind will make adjusting the back legs a nightmare. I would use adjustable legs front and back (with the front ones set back to where the kickboard wants to go). Then you can level the carcasses, and scribe your faceframe legs to the floor. This way you can use standard clips for the kickborads and retain access.
2. Drawer runners and Euro style hinges would need to be packed out to the faceframe. Personally I think this looks naff on hinges, so I use butts on this style of kitchen, but up to you.
3. The drawer runners you describe are known as undermount (or concealed). If you want soft close then Blum and Grass offer nice units, Hafele do some of their own as a budget option.
Hope that helps.
Ben.

rhrwilliams · Post by **rhrwilliams** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:38 am

Thanks for the reply and your input .

I think battening the hinges is a little naff too - I'm going to have another crack at setting the face frame the other way so flush on inside .

I'll also try to do the plinth as you suggested and see how I get on -

Thanks again

karl · Post by **karl** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:13 am

I agree - make the face frame so that it only overhangs the inside of the carcass by 0.5-1mm. Also, you're giving yourself a shitload of work to do by screwing through the face of it - use pocket hole screws through the side of the carcass and screw into the back of the frame - no making good afterwards!

Cheers

Karl

rhrwilliams · Post by **rhrwilliams** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:49 am

Thanks Karl - yes I was always going to use pocket screws - I just don't have a jig yet so just roughly screwed frame on

thekarter · Post by **thekarter** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:38 pm

Line the frames up with the inside of the carcass then fitting draw runners is easy. Use good quality butt hinges.
Alan

rhrwilliams · Post by **rhrwilliams** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:34 pm

Right, I've take on board comments and had another go......This time in Birch plywood (timber merchants had it cheap) , same as before using housing joints.

I must say I'm pleased with this and think I'm almost ready to get going. Its STRONG. I mean really strong - you could jump and down on this and it wouldn't be going anywhere. After making this mock up I think I might try to borrow a rail saw. A 8 x 4 sheet is a b*stard to cut on a table saw - not really a 1 man job.

Anyway, here it is , face frame sides are 37mm flush inside, and I now have made the kick board clip on as suggested , and put adjustable legs on the front- I will have to make the face frame and legs long when I make it as the floor really is that uneven.

Do people generally paint face frames before going on carcass ? Ive seen couple of threads where people paint them when on, but why, is this not just loads of extra work masking everything up ? I was going to buy a sprayer to do this job.

Also I planned to do this in Tulipwood, but the man at the timber merchants said it won't hold up well next to an Aga because of the heat - true or nonsense ? I could do it out of Sapele but seems a shame to paint such a nice wood.

senior · Post by **senior** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:24 pm

My tip is to make the carcass slightly different. If you make the bottom 36mm wider and the sides 18mm shorter and screw up into the sides then you have a bit of manouverability on the carcass to get your 0.5mm, doesn't need buscuits or dominos and there is no chance of the weight of the worktops pushing the sides down,
Make sure you put the grain of the birch ply vertical as well, just looks wrong that way round, it should flow around the unit.
Best butt hinges are worchester parsons or basta parsons they are expensive but if you buy cheap ones you will pay for it in 2 years when the doors are all wobbly and the pins are dropping out of the hinges.
If you have any pullout units, make it so the whole frame pulls out, so the door is glued within the frame. otherwise you will constantly be adjusting the hardware depending on weight within it. Spo for example if I have a bin to fit a 450mm unit I'll make a 450mm carcass, lay on style, edge the front and then make the door and frame as one and cut it to 447mm wide.
Leave the carcases as a natural look, I use ac lacquer, paint the frames separately.

rhrwilliams · Post by **rhrwilliams** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:53 pm

Thanks for the comments, Ive learnt a lot from this small thread already ! I was going to try some 20% Morrels Laquer for carcasses - but will order after xmas.

I have done what you have proposed in my planned dishwasher space - e.g making the door and frame as basically one door stuck to the front of the dishwasher,

I dont really understand what you mean about the making the carcass different - do you mean butt joining the bottom to the sides from underneath ? I did it with housing joints as I thought it would be stronger - but to be honest not using housing joints would save me a lot of time.

Thanks all for input. Its very much appreciated

senior · Post by **senior** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:36 pm

rhrwilliams wrote:
I dont really understand what you mean about the making the carcass different - do you mean butt joining the bottom to the sides from underneath ? I did it with housing joints as I thought it would be stronger - but to be honest not using housing joints would save me a lot of time.

Thanks all for input. Its very much appreciated

That's it.

Meccarroll · Post by **Meccarroll** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:35 am

senior wrote:
rhrwilliams wrote:
I dont really understand what you mean about the making the carcass different - do you mean butt joining the bottom to the sides from underneath ? I did it with housing joints as I thought it would be stronger - but to be honest not using housing joints would save me a lot of time.

Thanks all for input. Its very much appreciated
That's it.

Senior if this method is used (running the bottom rail through) won't it alter the intended look of the units? Or am I not understanding the appearance aims here.

thekarter · Post by **thekarter** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:45 am

Now that you are using 'the best' material (IMHO) for the carcass - birch ply I would use Rustins Danish Oil for the interior finish. It's easy to use and you can get a superb finish.
If you do use butt hinges - when fitting the doors which is normally done before fitting the units together only fit the hinges using one or two screws each side. Once the units are together you can put the other screws in. If the units should twist in anyway when fitting it will be easier to make slight adjustments on the door.
I tend to make sides of the frame 25mm, with two units screwed together 50mm looks good. You say that on the mock up you used 37mm- two together makes quite a wide frame - 74mm.
Alan

nickw · Post by **nickw** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 4:49 pm

I'd avoid using any oil on any interior surface. Some people find the residual odour quite unpleasant. Even after some time. With birch ply, a water based lacquer looks good as it keeps the pale colour.

senior · Post by **senior** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:59 pm

Meccarroll wrote:
senior wrote:
rhrwilliams wrote:
I dont really understand what you mean about the making the carcass different - do you mean butt joining the bottom to the sides from underneath ? I did it with housing joints as I thought it would be stronger - but to be honest not using housing joints would save me a lot of time.

Thanks all for input. Its very much appreciated
That's it.
Senior if this method is used (running the bottom rail through) won't it alter the intended look of the units? Or am I not understanding the appearance aims here.

No just the carcass, the face frame is made the other way round.

Meccarroll · Post by **Meccarroll** » Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:37 am

senior wrote:
Meccarroll wrote:
senior wrote:
That's it.
Senior if this method is used (running the bottom rail through) won't it alter the intended look of the units? Or am I not understanding the appearance aims here.
No just the carcass, the face frame is made the other way round.

Thank you Senior, I was muddling the face frames with the caracas frames. This type of construction, frames with inset doors, seems to be a recreation of the type of kitchen you would expect to see new 50 odd years ago.

Richard
why use plastic adjustable feet when you can level the plinth to the floor, frame behind the plinth with 1"x2" and fix your units to that. For example if you have three units, let the plinth run the length of the three units, scribe and level the plinth to the floor and build a 1"x2" frame behind the plinth, but together and screw the 1"x2" frame. It might sound a lot of work but could be done with a chop saw and drill driver in a matter of 10 to 15 minutes. Every unit will be perfectly in line as they will all be standing on the same level base. If you use individual feet there is a lot more room for error and you will spend a lot more time fixing each foot to the base, more cutting involved in individual plinths for each unit, and finally more time individually adjusting each foot.

Either way will work, it's just down to your choice.

Mark

Post by **promhandicam** » Thu Dec 24, 2015 8:33 am

For painted face frames I would use beech. For the carcases, if you don't have access to a panel saw then try looking for a company that can do it for you. I've used cutwrights in the past, who have a good website with a cutting list. Not sure whereabouts you are, but you might find someone local. It will save you a lot of time and the panels will be very accurately cut making assembly easier.

Meccarroll · Post by **Meccarroll** » Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:07 am

promhandicam wrote:For painted face frames I would use beech. For the carcases, if you don't have access to a panel saw then try looking for a company that can do it for you. I've used cutwrights in the past, who have a good website with a cutting list. Not sure whereabouts you are, but you might find someone local. It will save you a lot of time and the panels will be very accurately cut making assembly easier.

There is a Scheppach Table/Panel saw in the background which I think should cope with the dimensioning. I think the main concern Richard has is the initial cutting down of the 8x4 sheets into a more manageable size for one person to handle.

Richard
Are you using Birch Faced Ply for the mock up only or the actual kitchen? It might seem cheaper than MFC but it's going to take a lot of time to put a finish on it (if that's your intention) and the money spent on the finish will increase the overall cost too. Just worth considering.

Mark

Roger-M · Post by **Roger-M** » Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:22 am

Meccarroll wrote: Are you using Birch Faced Ply for the mock up only or the actual kitchen? It might seem cheaper than MFC but it's going to take a lot of time to put a finish on it (if that's your intention) and the money spent on the finish will increase the overall cost too. Just worth considering.
Mark

+1. It is very easy to underestimate both the time involved and the space needed to store components for a kitchen refit, especially if using face-frames. You'll have loads to do without having to finish the insides of cabinets. Even high end kitchens use MFC - there are so many colours/textures available, and no finishing is required, and the interiors are easy to wipe clean when in use. Don't underestimate the importance of having a pale interior so that you can see inside. Use any money saved for high end components like corner solutions, hinges, handles, soft-close drawers, mixer lift, lighting etc Maybe use a veneered ply or mdf for any units having a glass door? Just my two penn'orth.

rhrwilliams · Post by **rhrwilliams** » Sun Jan 03, 2016 3:28 pm

Thanks for all the help - sorry for slow reply I have been away for xmas.

I am undecided with the birch ply / MFC, I'm going to buy a tin of Morrels 20% and see how long it takes and what it looks like. I know MFC is the sensible option but I really like the look of the Birch Ply. Perhaps a Birch ply MFC may be the best of both worlds.

Santa bought me a new toy....A lazer level..... and my floor in the kitchen is out by 35mm from one end to the other. Based on this - what do people usually do with this amount of difference ? I want the worktop to be the same height and don't want the base to look stupid

I was thinking the best thing may be to make the face frames long and split the difference ? What does everyone think about that ? I would appreciate someone with experience of putting in a kitchen in a floor this uneven.

I think making a plinth may work as Mark has suggested and may be best for me. Am I right in saying you would be basically be making a frame out of 2" x 1" which you would level with 2" x 1" legs - which would would have to scribe each one in......or you would use something like this http://www.hafele.co.uk/shop/p/kitchen- ... 72119/5970
..then you would support units on frame ?

Also - the Scheppach table saw is great if you use the table fence - very very accurate , but the sliding table is rubbish. Ive set it up a million times and its not accurate for cutting big panels - great for cutting wood to correct length....crap for big sheets.

billybuntus · Post by **billybuntus** » Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:38 pm

Take the difference out in the plinth. Not the face frames.

Meccarroll · Post by **Meccarroll** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 3:19 pm

rhrwilliams wrote:Thanks for all the help - sorry for slow reply I have been away for xmas.

1.
I think making a plinth may work as Mark has suggested and may be best for me. Am I right in saying you would be basically be making a frame out of 2" x 1" which you would level with 2" x 1" legs - which would would have to scribe each one in......or you would use something like this http://www.hafele.co.uk/shop/p/kitchen- ... 72119/5970
..then you would support units on frame ?

2.
Also - the Scheppach table saw is great if you use the table fence - very very accurate , but the sliding table is rubbish. Ive set it up a million times and its not accurate for cutting big panels - great for cutting wood to correct length....crap for big sheets.

1. Yes is the simple answer and there is no need for any plinth brackets to level the plinth.

I would first scribe the plinth to the floor then prop it upright in position and then lay two pieces (head and sole plates of frame) together to simulate the depth (thickness) of the head and sole plate. Then I would place each leg in its position and mark each leg height corresponding to the top of the plinth. Fix the frame together and it's job done. If you are taking the face frames to the floor then you will need to lengthen them for scribing. I tend to use a set of compasses with pencil for scribing but some people would use a block of wood cut off at 35mm.

2. I think as you suggest the sliding carriage is better for cutting smaller items to length. If you remove your length stop from the sliding carriage and possibly table fence then fix an 8'x4' sheet directly on the table saw (blocks screwed underneath at each corner of the table saw to hold it rigidly in place) to increase the table size you should be able to cut large sheets much easier. You will have to cut a slit in the 8'x4' sheet for the blade to pass through and possibly use a piece of timber set parallel to the blade as a fence but it gives you more support when cutting your sheets material. I have used this method on a spindle moulder when moulding large curves pieces and it works well. I have also used this method on site saws for cutting sheet material with good results. You will probably have to support the overhanging table with a bit of framework but it's relatively quick and simple to do.

Mark

rhrwilliams · Post by **rhrwilliams** » Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:47 pm

Right troops the project is underway ! I have had lots of help from this thread so good goes well .

I finalised the design (cooker going in island unit )

I got the wood cut to size from wood yard and did cutting list . I went for birch ply and glad I did as its really nice quality

I've made base units with groover I borrowed off a friend . All square etc .stuck together biscuits glue and pocket screws . Prob overkill but they are not going to fall apart ! Each unit has its own dimensioned fearing to try to avoid c*ck ups

I've not made the fridge freezer yet I need to work out what depth I need - currently units have 30mm service void and I need to check a fridge will fit with this ! So I'm off to the good lady's house to measure her fridge

Spraying base units next ..... (I need to order face frame wood so will do this while I wait )

Very happy with progress so far

rhrwilliams · Post by **rhrwilliams** » Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:50 pm

Oh and I turned my kitchen into a workshop !
More space here !

rhrwilliams · Post by **rhrwilliams** » Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:23 pm

Got all cabinets made and sprayed them with AC laquer

AC laq is horrible stuff and I don't think it's really suitable without a spray booth so I'm going to use something less offensive next time

rhrwilliams · Post by **rhrwilliams** » Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:28 am

I have bought a dovetail jig (UKJ one) and have made up a mock draw to test runners etc and make sure I don't mess up a load of quality wood and expensive runners. All is going to plan and I'm chuffed with my new toy.

I am worried about the large draws (which the actual draw is just under 1m long, about 480mm deep) and what thickness of material to use.

I was planning to do 15mm sides , front and backs to the draws (In Oak, Ash or Beach - I'm going to wood yard tomorrow to see whats nice) with a 12mm venerred MDF or Plywood Base.

Has anyone with experience making these bigger draws advise what they usually do , I don't want it being weak and I'm worried if 15mm sides with a 12mm base will be man enough.

Thanks

Richard

MJ80 · Post by **MJ80** » Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:57 pm

you need to put some bearers under the drawer base, or split the base with a bearer between the sections.

rhrwilliams · Post by **rhrwilliams** » Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:03 pm

Ah ha, ok that makes sense.

Update - Ive made all the carcasses and milled face frame stuff. I made each frame individually , I could have saved lots of time milling it all up at once but I was frightened of making a mistake and ruining all my wood ! There must also have been a much easier way of cutting the c*ck bead angle than with a chisel. It took me ages.

Ive put the frames on carcasses to make sure the glue sets square and where I want it. Ive alto test fitted it because I couldn't resist and all is going well !

Im going to spray carcasses with another coat of morels lacquer, then project is on hold for a week or so as I have to go back to work on Monday and earn some cash.

billybuntus · Post by **billybuntus** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:22 pm

Looking good. I admire your effort.

For aesthetics I would have done the face frame in one piece. i.e. 36mm uprights between the lower level units.

Once painted a line will be seen. I'm sure it will still look great though.

This coming from a bloke who's just spent 3 hours putting 3 rows of tiles on in a shower. Painful.

rhrwilliams · Post by **rhrwilliams** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 7:43 am

Thanks , someone did point out earlier that I should make the uprights smaller too . To be honest though I thought it was a long run to Make in one peice of face frame and felt it would be much easier and more manageable for me in individual units , and give me less chance of cocking it up !

billybuntus · Post by **billybuntus** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:48 pm

rhrwilliams wrote:Thanks , someone did point out earlier that I should make the uprights smaller too . To be honest though I thought it was a long run to Make in one peice of face frame and felt it would be much easier and more manageable for me in individual units , and give me less chance of cocking it up !

I wouldn't worry about it. As long as your enjoying it that's the important part. It will look great when done.

rhrwilliams · Post by **rhrwilliams** » Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:23 am

Had a good few days on the project .... Doors made 27mm X 70mm tulip wood with 12 mm mdf panel . Wish I used 9mm but oh well

First coat of paint on. Paint is linseed oil paint it's lovely stuff

I'm going to put face frames back on Cabinets next and hang doors

I am going to use drawn hinges suggested by senior . I was going to double recess the hinge into door only as I've seen it done by others like this so assume it makes things easier !

tusses · Post by **tusses** » Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:12 pm

try to keep the MDF panels clean and scratch free .. I mean not a mark !
It saves loads of time painting, as every little mark shows through for several coats

apart from that .. looking good

rhrwilliams · Post by **rhrwilliams** » Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:27 pm

I just read the thread where Paul Burrow is doing a curved kitchen which looks bloody fantastic, different league ! - my little old kitchen is coming on though and the units are fitted and doors hung ! No more work on it for a couple of weeks as I have to go away for work for a bit. Next post will be finished and this far too long thread will draw to a close.

rhrwilliams · Post by **rhrwilliams** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:53 pm

The never ending kitchen project is hopefully near to an end . I just can't get this bloody thing finished - about 10,000 times more work than I thought and I'm sooooooo fed up of living without a kitchen

The fridge butt hinges don't work because the door is too thick to fit in the gap left in the unit - as a result the door will not open all the way .

Does anyone have any clever ideas to sort this ? If not I'll have to remake the door in 18 mm timber .

I tried cranked cabinet hinges but they were no good

Thanks

Richard

PABLO123 · Post by **PABLO123** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:36 pm

Hi Richard,
I don't think you have made the opening wide enough, if its a fridge with sliders the opening needs to be
585mm + the frames 37mm each side total 659mm, with a gap on the hinge side of the fridge allowing clearance for the door to open fully. Hope that
helps
Paul

rhrwilliams · Post by **rhrwilliams** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:07 pm

Thanks for reply Paul,

No I don't think I have made opening wide enough. Its 564mm clear opening, I copied this from a fridge unit from screwfix. The Fridge is 540mm. Bugger, So there is only 20 odd mm space.

The only thing I can think to do is re-make the doors in thinner material , I don't think I can bring myself to re-make the unit, besides if I spray any more AC Laquer I'm not sure I'm going to make it to my 30th birthday.

rhrwilliams · Post by **rhrwilliams** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:23 pm

OR find a decent pair of cranked hinges.

senior · Post by **senior** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:27 pm

Fridges always work on an assummed 600 cabinet, so if you are using 37mm frames the unit needs to be 675, or the door glued into the frame and then it works on a 600mm dimension.
If you have worked on a 564 gap then you have a 600mm carcass. So it will work if you remake the door and frame as one and use blum thin concealed hinges.

I bet this mistake has been made by every bespoke kitchen maker at some point or other.

thekarter · Post by **thekarter** » Sun May 01, 2016 5:48 pm

The problem with copying from Screwfix is that their cabinet is the correct size for 'Lay on Doors' and not a door with butt hinges. I am not sure that a thinner door will work with butt hinges. If you took the door down to 20mm may be you could fit the door with lay on door type hinges. Having said that I am not sure how they would work with slider on the fridge door.
Alan

Roger-M · Post by **Roger-M** » Mon May 02, 2016 3:23 pm

This is similar to a problem I faced with my kitchen. In this case it was a door inset in a face frame, and the fridge was a Siemens where the hinges were those of the appliance rather than separate hinges with a door follower. However, the problem was similar, and there may be something in this thread that helps.