Past project

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Re: Past project

Post by Meccarroll » Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:15 pm

Stair and Handrail Stretch-out

For anyone that is interested, the below article covers in very good detail how to achieve the above.

https://www.knostairs.com/staircase-glo ... retch-out/

Essentially this takes the risers and goings that are in position around a well, quarter turn etc and projects them on to a straight line (They are stretched out).

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:19 pm

Yes, I found that website, thanks Mark but for this bear with little brain it meant absolutely nothing. And certainly not confident to apply one to my own situation.
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:53 pm

Quick sanity check, please.

Just to confirm that the three red lines are parallel to each other. I think they should be.
parallel lines.png
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Re: Past project

Post by Meccarroll » Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:56 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:19 pm
Yes, I found that website, thanks Mark but for this bear with little brain it meant absolutely nothing. And certainly not confident to apply one to my own situation.
That's understandable Rodger, I expect you need a break for a couple of days to digest all the drawings.

I did a drawing on A4 paper using the dimensions you gave in another thread and came up with a vertical distance of 230mm.

I used the riser positions based on your dimensions in the other thread and a going of 270mm. This gave me 230mm diff vertically.

I did not use a drawing package, CAD or drawing tools, just a rule and square as it was a quick guide for me to see how or even if it may differ from your previous height measurements and it did.

I'm off next week and may find the time to have a bash to see what I can come up with, so any chance you could arm me with the following:

1. Distance from the centre line of the bottom string to the riser facing the block plane in your pictures.

2. The distance from the centre line of the top string to the face of the last riser on the bottom flight. I'd just use a sliding square from the face of the last tread to the centre line of the top string then deduct the nosing from the measurement to obtain the correct dimension.

3. Re check that the going (riser face to riser face) is 270mm as previously stated in another thread of yours. And the rise is 155mm.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:15 pm

The blue arrow is pointing to a line that is not parallel to the ordinate , so the other lines with red arrows are wrong, is the base line of the semi-circle at 90 deg to the ordinate.?
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:18 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:53 pm
Quick sanity check, please.

Just to confirm that the three red lines are parallel to each other. I think they should be.

parallel lines.png
ALL lines are parallel to the ordinate or vertical.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:29 pm

Meccarroll

I agree in an ideal world the stretchout is the way to go but what’s the point when the bottom step of the upper flight and possibly the second to bottom too, are past the turn and will probably have to be removed and turned into winders.

Looking forward to what you come up with.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:30 pm

Here’s a stretch out and handrail I drew years ago.
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Re: Past project

Post by Meccarroll » Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:07 pm

Oldboy22 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:29 pm
Meccarroll

I agree in an ideal world the stretch-out is the way to go but what’s the point when the bottom step of the upper flight and possibly the second to bottom too, are past the turn and will probably have to be removed and turned into winders.

Looking forward to what you come up with.

This is not my project and not an ideal set of stairs for this type of handrail and if it were my choice I'd start over but it's not.

Even if the handrail problem is overcome, then there is still the problem of where do you sit the balusters? Shhhhhhh.......we can take a look at a later stage!

There is no more reason in drawing a stretch-out for this stair setup than I would think there is in making all the tangent drawings unless you want to explore ways of overcoming a very difficult situation. By taking a crack at this you may have to scratch you head but I think it is interesting and would be quite an achievement to help solve this one!

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:22 pm

Meccarroll wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:07 pm
Oldboy22 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:29 pm
Meccarroll

I agree in an ideal world the stretch-out is the way to go but what’s the point when the bottom step of the upper flight and possibly the second to bottom too, are past the turn and will probably have to be removed and turned into winders.

Looking forward to what you come up with.

This is not my project and not an ideal set of stairs for this type of handrail and if it were my choice I'd start over but it's not.

Even if the handrail problem is overcome, then there is still the problem of where do you sit the balusters? Shhhhhhh.......we can take a look at a later stage!

There is no more reason in drawing a stretch-out for this stair setup than I would think there is in making all the tangent drawings unless you want to explore ways of overcoming a very difficult situation. By taking a crack at this you may have to scratch you head but I think it is interesting and would be quite an achievement to help solve this one!
I couldn’t agree more ,the whole thing is a nightmare, the stairs the balusters and the handrail, and the problems are going to keep coming.

Have to wait to see how it all turns out.

I only joined the forum to get involved in this , I just love developing handrails and general developing geometry.

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Re: Past project

Post by Meccarroll » Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:11 am

Oldboy22 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:22 pm
Meccarroll wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:07 pm
Oldboy22 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:29 pm
Meccarroll

Looking forward to what you come up with.

This is not my project ..............if it were my choice I'd start over but it's not.

.............the whole thing is a nightmare................
Have to wait to see how it all turns out.
I took a look at this stair layout in another thread and suggested Rodger got rid of these stairs and built a new set, others on another site have also made that suggestion and now you. I'm not at all sure it's feasible to produce a wreath without a great deal of deviation (in other words, I'd scrap the idea at this section).

I'd be very interested to see how the drawings you and Rodger have done translate into the actual stairs Rodger has, do you think they will work in practice owing to the significant drop at the turn?

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:40 am

Meccarroll wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:11 am
Oldboy22 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:22 pm
Meccarroll wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:07 pm



This is not my project ..............if it were my choice I'd start over but it's not.

.............the whole thing is a nightmare................
Have to wait to see how it all turns out.
I'd be very interested to see how the drawings you and Rodger have done translate into the actual stairs Rodger has, do you think they will work in practice owing to the significant drop at the turn?
I’m very confident the drawing I have done is right, will have to wait to see what Rodgers drawing looks like. The little paper model I cut and folded proves it is right, it also shows the centre line falling across the two pitches and a perfect replication of the quarter circle in the plan.
With the addition of the easing it should be right.

Wether it’s right for this staircase is another story, I’ve already said in my very first post on the staircase upgrade it’s not.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:21 am

Oldboy22 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:15 pm
The blue arrow is pointing to a line that is not parallel to the ordinate , so the other lines with red arrows are wrong, is the base line of the semi-circle at 90 deg to the ordinate.?
Many thanks. Went back to the beginning of the thread and re-read it, I see where I went wrong now. I will be re-drawing using the accurate vertical height difference.
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:33 am

Here's a question that's puzzling me. Left-handed turn or right-handed turn ?

In one of your drawings, the two bevels are different. Which makes the wreath asymmetric. So it can only be fitted one-way round. But which end is the top and which end the bottom? And what about the 'handed-ness' of the turn ?
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:43 am

'New staircase'.

Let's put this to bed once and for all. The time to have made a new staircase was three years ago. Not now. The inner hall is HUGE. You could fit a Barratt box inside it pretty much. So the thought of ripping out the existing staircase, putting in a new one ..(it would have to be the same configuration as we are severely storage-limited and that under-stairs storage is vital), getting scaffolding back in, re-plastering it then redecorating it. Out of the question.

The alternative to a continuous rail is a Burbidge newel posted anathema. Besides, Chief Designer wants a continuous rail.

You might ask 'Well, why didn't he do it three years ago?". That's a fair question but when you're chief ripper-outer, materials orderer, plumber, electrician, kitchen installer, one bathroom, two en-suites and a downstairs bog installer, Kingspan installer, general joiner, tile-layer, garden-bed maker, orangerie-designer and builder and desperately trying to stay one step ahead so as to be ready for the builders each day....then just maybe something has to give !

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I didn't have a workshop or any machines then !
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:30 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:33 am
Here's a question that's puzzling me. Left-handed turn or right-handed turn ?

In one of your drawings, the two bevels are different. Which makes the wreath asymmetric. So it can only be fitted one-way round. But which end is the top and which end the bottom? And what about the 'handed-ness' of the turn ?
The turn doesn’t matter as far as the drawing goes, once the wreath template is made it can be flipped for a left or right turn.

It could always only only be fitted one way round, the lower part of the wreath is a different pitch, make sure you don’t get this mixed up.

The top and bottom are as drawn in the elevation ie the top is the top and the bottom the bottom.

All the way through I’ve said there are two different bevels one at the top and one at the bottom, the bottom bevel is drawn in magenta, this is not an equal pitch handrail so it goes to show the bevels will be different.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:41 am

If you have looked at my model and got confused, it swings to the left because I folded it with the print on the outside. Which goes to show it doesn’t matter which hand you draw it, it can be used for a left or right handed staircase.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:46 am

Top as the arrow.
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:54 am

Many thanks for the clarification.
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:50 am

Meccarroll wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:56 pm
thatsnotafestool wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:19 pm
Yes, I found that website, thanks Mark but for this bear with little brain it meant absolutely nothing. And certainly not confident to apply one to my own situation.
That's understandable Rodger, I expect you need a break for a couple of days to digest all the drawings.

I did a drawing on A4 paper using the dimensions you gave in another thread and came up with a vertical distance of 230mm.

I used the riser positions based on your dimensions in the other thread and a going of 270mm. This gave me 230mm diff vertically.

I did not use a drawing package, CAD or drawing tools, just a rule and square as it was a quick guide for me to see how or even if it may differ from your previous height measurements and it did.

I'm off next week and may find the time to have a bash to see what I can come up with, so any chance you could arm me with the following:

1. Distance from the centre line of the bottom string to the riser facing the block plane in your pictures.

2. The distance from the centre line of the top string to the face of the last riser on the bottom flight. I'd just use a sliding square from the face of the last tread to the centre line of the top string then deduct the nosing from the measurement to obtain the correct dimension.

3. Re check that the going (riser face to riser face) is 270mm as previously stated in another thread of yours. And the rise is 155mm.

Here you go, Mark. Measured twice this time.
measurements for Mark.jpg
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:20 pm

New drawing but I can't get the ellipse to touch in one place and I can't see where 've gone wrong.

Default values are height 192mm = split 64mm easing, 128mm wreath. Radius 200mm.
ellipse not touching.png
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:04 pm

Wow looking good you really have come a long way, a few days ago you would have even notice that, fantastic.

Check these points.
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:09 pm

Here's my very first one. I'm going to put it in a cabinet :D

Image
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:10 pm

Oldboy22 wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:04 pm
Wow looking good you really have come a long way, a few days ago you would have even notice that, fantastic.

Check these points.
Thank you.

Yes, I'd checked all of those angles and the two lengths are equal to each other.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:20 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:09 pm
Here's my very first one. I'm going to put it in a cabinet :D

Image
Okay good try, can you fold it so the quarter circle is flat on the table the sides plumb and the sides vertical? It’s also upside down and take another picture?.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:23 pm

Looks like it’s a triangle in plan?

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:24 pm

Sorry it should be a box with a slanted lid. Like mine.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:34 pm

This is it unfolded. I'm pretty sure I've folded the same outline to cut as in your post.
Image

I've also done a sanity check on overall length and it is rather long across the two 'shanks' at nearly 700mm ! Which is impractical to work on ...at least at my skill level. I'll play around seeing what the effect is of altering the ratio between easing and wreath and/or chosen radius size.

But I bet you could probably tell me ;-)
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:45 pm

The height is fixed and can’t be changed, try a 150 radius and increase the easing to half the height.to see how that looks I might redraw at the new dimensions to see what I come up with.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:42 pm

Mmm...this is it. Wreath comes out at about 512mm across the chord. Easing curved part is also that sort of length !

Still can't get the ellipse to touch all touch points.

Image
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:03 pm

Made up another 3D model. But looks very similar to the other one. I've posted the cut and fold lines to check they're right. Cutlines - yellow. Folds - red.

Image

Image
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:34 pm

I'm wondering if I shouldn't resurrect this approach :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTZix0SwmhQ&t=5s
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:03 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:34 pm
I'm wondering if I shouldn't resurrect this approach :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTZix0SwmhQ&t=5s
That Blokes a clown I hope your joking?

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:10 pm

I don’t understand your problem working a long wreath, you have more gentle twist . The pictures of the stairs on my first page travel over four risers so they must be over 650 mm long I’d have thought.

Here’s a picture from the internet of Jim Baldwin with a large wreath probably in two pieces, so they are long too.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:16 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:42 pm
Mmm...this is it. Wreath comes out at about 512mm across the chord. Easing curved part is also that sort of length !

Still can't get the ellipse to touch all touch points.

Image
If it was my job I would go back to the previous drawing and work a longer wreath and shorter easing, but it’s your choice.either way you need to resolve the ellipse not touching the tangent.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:19 pm

It can be done in two pieces but an extra joint!...

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:19 pm

I agree with you there. Maybe a compromise...we shall see. What I intend to do is mockup using softwood first.

My SketchUp guru is taking a look. Can I just check that you can't see anything wrong with my drawing then ?
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:29 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:19 pm
I agree with you there. Maybe a compromise...we shall see. What I intend to do is mockup using softwood first.

My SketchUp guru is taking a look. Can I just check that you can't see anything wrong with my drawing then ?
If everything is parallel to the ordinate and everything is vertical and at 90deg where it should be I can’t see anything obvious

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Re: Past project

Post by Meccarroll » Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:25 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:50 am
Meccarroll wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:56 pm
thatsnotafestool wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:19 pm
Yes, I found that website, thanks Mark but for this bear with little brain it meant absolutely nothing. And certainly not confident to apply one to my own situation.
That's understandable Rodger, I expect you need a break for a couple of days to digest all the drawings.

I did a drawing on A4 paper using the dimensions you gave in another thread and came up with a vertical distance of 230mm.

I used the riser positions based on your dimensions in the other thread and a going of 270mm. This gave me 230mm diff vertically.

I did not use a drawing package, CAD or drawing tools, just a rule and square as it was a quick guide for me to see how or even if it may differ from your previous height measurements and it did.

I'm off next week and may find the time to have a bash to see what I can come up with, so any chance you could arm me with the following:

1. Distance from the centre line of the bottom string to the riser facing the block plane in your pictures.

2. The distance from the centre line of the top string to the face of the last riser on the bottom flight. I'd just use a sliding square from the face of the last tread to the centre line of the top string then deduct the nosing from the measurement to obtain the correct dimension.

3. Re check that the going (riser face to riser face) is 270mm as previously stated in another thread of yours. And the rise is 155mm.

Here you go, Mark. Measured twice this time.

measurements for Mark.jpg
Thank you for this Roger.

Can I ask is the Top Riser 20mm or 61mm from the C/L ? Sorry but it's not clear.

You have a lot of different going,s there but it's a old staircase so some deviation can occur. Is the second to bottom going on the bottom flight similar?

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:44 pm

Oldboy22 wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:29 pm
thatsnotafestool wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:19 pm
I agree with you there. Maybe a compromise...we shall see. What I intend to do is mockup using softwood first.

My SketchUp guru is taking a look. Can I just check that you can't see anything wrong with my drawing then ?
If everything is parallel to the ordinate and everything is vertical and at 90deg where it should be I can’t see anything obvious
It's the vagaries of SketchUp. My expert has put me right.
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
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