Past project

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thatsnotafestool
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:48 pm

Very confused now.

Re bevel angle. Both your drawing (IIRC) and mine have the bevel slanting to the left.
bevels to the left.png
On This is Carpentry, it also slants to the left there. I guess I'll have to offer it up and see which way is which.

But in this drawing, it's as per your photo above.
working the wreath.jpg
Re the centre line. I thought the focus was on the tangent line as per above. I don't recall ever seeing the centre-line and horiz/vert cross on the end.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:36 pm

The bevels are reversible but trust me start from a horizontal and vertical centre line first then take the bevel from that point. Also make sure both ends start from the centre point, I think the bevels go the same way as per the page from the book above.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:58 pm

I’m talking about the centre line of the bevel is the centre line of the twisted handrail section so you would have to set of half one way and the same the other way to get the outsides.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:16 pm

On the drawing, are we correct in saying that the top of the wreath is shown by the black semi-circle and the end joining the easing, the purple semi-circle? And that the bevel drawing are correct for each end and not swapped over ? Because if the top of the wreath is on the RH side on the drawing, then it curves away from the upper flight and also the bevel is not vertical where it would be joining the upper handrail. I mocked it up.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:58 pm

We have developed the underside face of the wreath because if you fold it along the inclined tangent it would sit over the radius in the plan, but like I said before it’s reversible the magenta end must always go to the easing. So flip it to the right and put the bevels on as the drawing from the book and it will work.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:35 am

Bear with me, please.

Which one ?
as per drawing.png
as per drawing flip horizontal.png
as per drawing flip horizontal then vert.png
as per drawing flip vert.png
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:10 am

What you trying to do ?

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:24 am

Oldboy22 wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:10 am
What you trying to do ?
What you said here...

We have developed the underside face of the wreath because if you fold it along the inclined tangent it would sit over the radius in the plan, but like I said before it’s reversible the magenta end must always go to the easing. So flip it to the right and put the bevels on as the drawing from the book and it will work.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:45 am

You have done the ellipse wrong, have a close look at this drawing you should have three different radii the centre one from the plan the other two from where you drew your handrail sections twisted.

If you developed the ellipse as I said from the plan it would give you the widths required, and you should be able to check it’s right by the dimensions widths from the radii in the part where you developed the handrail twist.

Your ellipse is parallel and it shouldn’t be.

I think you are trying to flip it like I said? But I meant cut out the template first marking which end is up and down and flip it over to the right so the up is still up and down is down as if you rotating it around the centre point of the NOW lower tangent.
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:51 am

I take your point re ellipse and will redo.

But please humour me and just tell me which of my diagrams 1-4 I should lay on top of the blank.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:03 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:51 am
I take your point re ellipse and will redo.

But please humour me and just tell me which of my diagrams 1-4 I should lay on top of the blank.
I don’t really understand your drawing, but looks like no4

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:13 am

Oldboy22 wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:03 am
thatsnotafestool wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:51 am
I take your point re ellipse and will redo.

But please humour me and just tell me which of my diagrams 1-4 I should lay on top of the blank.
I don’t really understand your drawing, but looks like no4
I think you are adding an extra level of confusion to an already difficult job by flipping it in your draw, I don’t advise it.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:31 am

Another picture fro a different book confirming the application of the bevels
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6F34825B-FE3C-4839-B8E1-01DCD6F13359.jpeg (34.92 KiB) Viewed 675 times

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:32 am

Let's start again and let's just do it step by step, please. Let's leave bevels out of it for the moment.

This is what we both get when we print this out. Agreed ?
as per drawing.png
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:34 am

Yes

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:42 am

So next step is to place it on the block. This is where I'm getting confused. At this point in time all I would like to know is do I just lay it on top ? In the orientation that it is on the drawing?

Or do I orientate it as per this
as per drawing flip vert.png
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:53 am

Yes of course because it goes to the right, but not as it is, the ellipse is wrong.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:58 am

And don’t forget to add 50mm to the template at the non easing end to join the straight rail.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:00 am

OK..thank you. I'll go back into the workshop and get another blank made up. I may be some time !
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:03 am

THE ELLIPSE IS WRONG AND NEEDS CORRECTING BEFORE CONTINUING

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:12 am

Oldboy22 wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:03 am
THE ELLIPSE IS WRONG AND NEEDS CORRECTING BEFORE CONTINUING
No...not necessary at this stage. I am using softwood as a dummy run. All I am interested in at the moment is does it fit between our two nominal setpoints (ie upper flight straight handrail and easing) and at the correct angle.
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:14 am

It won’t look right until the twist is applied

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:19 am

Can anyone else reading this thread tell me , am I making sense? Is it coming out in English your end or am I living in the twilight zone. HELP!!!!!

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:32 am

LOL....we're clearly at cross-purposes at times.

The twist is defined by the bevels which will get drawn onto the ends as per instructions. This is where I got to last night before nearly throwing myself in the river...

I cut out the face mould and put it on the blank

Image

In the wrong orientation as I now realise.

I realised that I needed the easing in place and so I measured the slope at the end of the easing where it will join the wreath (50 degrees or so) and made a temporary block to represent the easing end thus..

Image

Marked up the two bevels on the wreath ends (incorrectly as well but we live and learn) and made a support so I could rest the wreath on the easing end and at the right twist so..

Image

That's when I realised that it turned in the wrong direction. Hey ho...let's press on, I thought. The end face on the other end of the wreath should continue on at an angle of 29 degrees. It does. But the bevels aren't vertical. That's when I went indoors for the day and got stuck into several bottles of beer to drown my sorrows.

But I shall persevere. I appreciate your patience.
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:51 am

The way I’m looking at it if you make the correct ellipse and transfer that to a piece of ply (you will need two) then you can practice on the softwood to your hearts content, which I think you should do twisting it and squaring it up, rather than cutting the blank out which is going to be to small to twist and have to go in the bin. A waste of time and wood.

I still don’t think you trust the technique because you can’t quite get your head around it.
Follow the steps and it will work.

Trust me I was a carpenter, lol testing fate now.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:18 pm

I trust the technique. I don't trust my getting my head around it.
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:12 pm

It's just not happening. The ends of the wreath are cut at 90 degrees to the tangent lines, aren't they ?
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:22 pm

I’ve said half a dozen times it needs the twist. It won’t look right it will be miles off.

Yes they MUST BE cut at 90 deg.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:24 pm

I remember going through the exact same thing, I couldn’t see it either.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:35 pm

Where we are going adrift is in the words that we use. When you say "It won't look right it will be miles off" can be taken two ways.

The first way is the look of the thing. If I take a bit of 2 x 2 and say here is a wreath. Then one could say ""It won't look right it will be miles off". If I then grabbed each end and twisted it then it would one could say "It looks right".

The second way is to say that, until the twist is in place then the face at the end of wreath will not be pointing in the right direction.

Which way are you referring to - first or second ?
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:37 pm

The second version

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:49 pm

I thought that was what you meant. The amount of twist is dictated by the bevels at either end..yes ?
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:01 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:49 pm
I thought that was what you meant. The amount of twist is dictated by the bevels at either end..yes ?
Of course 😳

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:10 pm

That's my point. The plane that the bevel lies on remains the same - regardless of bevel angle.

And if I place my easing bevel end on my easing test piece and twist the blank round on the face of that test piece then the other end of the blank will scribe an arc in the air - yes ?

And at some degree of rotation, a line perpendicular to the face at that other end (the end that will join up with the upper flight handrail) will be pointing up at 29 degrees. - yes ?
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:31 pm

Sorry bud I can’t do keep doing this either follow the instructions, or do it your own way

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:47 pm

Pity.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:12 am

Anyone got anything to share about tangent handrails or questions to ask .
If not this thread is going to go the way of the dodo.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:08 am

Anyone interested in learning about tangent handrails should start with a single twist single bevel rail. Interesting points to note the direction of the ordinate, and how the ellipse width changes with the development of the handrail width from the plan.
The ellipse minor and major axis are at 90deg ,so very easy to draw the ellipse with a trammel ( as seen on my first page in the photos) or the string and pin method (not very accurate). The bevel is easy and is the pitch of the stairs in this case, the two drawing give the same result in this case but are drawn differently.
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Re: Past project

Post by Trevanion » Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:12 am

Sure.

Say you’ve got an existing curved stairway made from concrete blocks and rendered over that you need to make a curved handrail for to go between a jewel on each end, how best would it be to lay this out, bearing in mind that the curve of the concrete “string” possibly isn’t absolutely perfect.

I was thinking a couple of datum lines square relative to the stair and make measurements every 100mm or so of the curve amount and the height gained, but I’m totally stabbing in the dark.

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Re: Past project

Post by MJ80 » Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:05 pm

I've been finding this really interesting to follow along

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