How to make a sash window

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mrgrimsdale
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How to make a sash window

Post by mrgrimsdale » Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:35 am

Telos wrote:
mrgrimsdale wrote:...What is certain is that modern paints are crap - most of the time...
Talking utter sh*te again, I see... The modern world must be a really scary place for you, huh Grandad?

If the average cretin doesn't know how to prepare wood properly for painting, this is not the fault of the manufacturer.
How do you do it then? Give us the details. Say frinstance repainting a 100 year old sash with old lead paint hanging off.
Or a new copy of same?
I've followed manufacturers instructions and had paint failures - hence it's the manufacturer's fault ::).
I've had pro decorators on jobs - looks nice, done fast, falls off 4 years or so later.

What is the big secret?

cheers
Jacob
PS I only paint for myself - with variable results. The worst thing is getting new paint to stick to old work.
The work I do I've always left to the client to paint, themselves or a pro. It's really disappointing going back to see stuff I did years ago, now looking tatty cos of crap paint or low maintenance.
I talk to others in the same line, they say the same thing. There's a lot of us cretins about ;D

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How to make a sash window

Post by jfc » Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:58 am

Get all the old crap off and spray it with Teknos water based paint . 8-)

telos
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How to make a sash window

Post by telos » Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:20 am

Well, I'll have to admit that I only have experience with new frames or refurbishing modern (less than 20 years old) frames. So, a 100 year old sash would be an unknown to me. However, I have seen a city wide project that involved Sikkens creating specially produced modern colours to recreate the original look of a series of very old buildings which were being renovated, one of which dates from 1556, the rest from late 1700's and early 1800's. The colour of linseed paints were carefully matched and recreated using modern techniques and modern paint technology. So, I know it is possible!


What I would advise is only use professional grade paint and primer. The primer should preferably also be coloured to match the top coat. (This stops differential expansion, which can cause adhesion failure.)

The wood must be perfectly clean and dry, not painted in direct sunlight or when there is moisture in the air. So, no early mornings after September and don't start later than about 16:00 either. The paint will absorb moisture and lose its gloss and shorten its life.

Ideally, if it's a new build, the frames should be primed before installation with a "open" primer that lets moisture out, but protects from rain if it's left standing around.

However, I would say the reason for most external paint breakdown in modern houses is poorly painted internal surfaces, combined with poorly ventilated housing, retaining far too much moisture indoors.

If the outside surface is hermetically sealed and moisture from indoors finds its way into the frame, instead of out through the cracks that old windows used to have. Then the modern paint will appear to be crap, as the moisture in the wood drives the paint off. When in actual fact it is merely the way we live in draft free houses, sometimes combined with the wrong paints being used internally that causes premature paint failure.

I don't think I can repeat this enough, the internal paint finish is, in some respects, more important for the frame life than the external.

mrgrimsdale
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How to make a sash window

Post by mrgrimsdale » Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:21 am

jfc wrote:Get all the old crap off and spray it with Teknos water based paint . 8-)
Can you spray old stuff in situ? What about glazing bars etc? Does Teknos water paint need a primer? Will it stick to old surfaces - old paint cleaned up, putty - primed or not, burned off old paint etc.

Am interested to hear what Telos has to say as I could really do with some useful tips, for old or restored windows/doors in situ.

cheers
Jacob

mrgrimsdale
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How to make a sash window

Post by mrgrimsdale » Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:31 am

Telos wrote:Well, I'll have to admit that I only have experience with new frames or refurbishing modern (less than 20 years old) frames. So, a 100 year old sash would be an unknown to me. However, I have seen a city wide project that involved Sikkens creating specially produced modern colours to recreate the original look of a series of very old buildings which were being renovated, one of which dates from 1556, the rest from late 1700's and early 1800's. The colour of linseed paints were carefully matched and recreated using modern techniques and modern paint technology. So, I know it is possible!
That's just matching the colours? Not the problem - I'm bothered about matching the durability, even if it's the wrong colour

What I would advise is only use professional grade paint and primer. The primer should preferably also be coloured to match the top coat. (This stops differential expansion, which can cause adhesion failure.)
Right. So grey Aluminium primer no good under anything but grey? Sticks well itself, except to putty. Have tried white oil primers - and white quick drying water based primers which are absolutely the worst.
The wood must be perfectly clean and dry, not painted in direct sunlight or when there is moisture in the air. So, no early mornings after September and don't start later than about 16:00 either. The paint will absorb moisture and lose its gloss and shorten its life.

Ideally, if it's a new build, the frames should be primed before installation with a "open" primer that lets moisture out, but protects from rain if it's left standing around.

However, I would say the reason for most external paint breakdown in modern houses is poorly painted internal surfaces, combined with poorly ventilated housing, retaining far too much moisture indoors.

If the outside surface is hermetically sealed and moisture from indoors finds its way into the frame, instead of out through the cracks that old windows used to have. Then the modern paint will appear to be crap, as the moisture in the wood drives the paint off. When in actual fact it is merely the way we live in draft free houses, sometimes combined with the wrong paints being used internally that causes premature paint failure.

I don't think I can repeat this enough, the internal paint finish is, in some respects, more important for the frame life than the external.
That's interesting. I'll think about it. At the mo I've got new repro windows with linseed oil paint outside and no paint at all inside - I coudn't get at both sides whilst it was on the gantry (big window).

cheers
Jacob

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How to make a sash window

Post by telos » Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:52 am

mrgrimsdale wrote:That's just matching the colours? Not the problem - I'm bothered about matching the durability, even if it's the wrong colour
This is a council approved project in a conservation area. They had to guarantee the quality. You do realise paint doesn't last forever, right? Even if it is the finest quality you will still need to touch it up every 3 or 4 years if you are facing south and recoat every 8 or 10. Even old linseed oil paints need checking every now and again. People did repaint their windows "in the olden days" you know. In fact part of the Sikkens research unearthed paint layers on the building from 1556 which had 21 layers! (And no, they weren't the original windows!)

mrgrimsdale wrote:Right. So grey Aluminium primer no good under anything but grey? Sticks well itself, except to putty. Have tried white oil primers - and white quick drying water based primers which are absolutely the worst.
Grey is fine for a lot of colours, it all depends on the difference. Dark greens and reds should use the same colour primer and white should always be on a white, or slightly off white primer.

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How to make a sash window

Post by jfc » Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:08 am

Does Teknos water paint need a primer?
Yes , a high build primer and then a top coat . You will have to speak to Teknos technical dept to find out if it sticks to glazing bars ;D 01608 683494

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How to make a sash window

Post by jfc » Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:32 pm

All the bottom sashes cleaned up and ready to fit and a few top sashes on the clamping wall .


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How to make a sash window

Post by agbagb » Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:08 am

Some great info on painting, I'll be looking into it more detail. I was thinking of dipping my ends in clear preservative before assembly. Is it worth it?
It looks like you've used PVA, I was thinking of using PU. Can anyone advise?
Apologies if I ask some basic questions but things have moved on since I did my "O"level.

I know you like hand cutting the miters on the moldings, but an alternative I used at the weekend was to set the chisel on my mortiser at 45 degrees, to cut a "V" and then routed the rest off.

I'd like to see your meeting rail detail with the brush seal. I've posted my first two ideas on my blog but I'm still not 100% happy.

Andy

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How to make a sash window

Post by telos » Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:49 pm

agbagb wrote:Some great info on painting, I'll be looking into it more detail. I was thinking of dipping my ends in clear preservative before assembly. Is it worth it?
It looks like you've used PVA, I was thinking of using PU. Can anyone advise? ....
It can be worth it, if you're a belts and braces kind of man. Of course I'd recommend yet another Sikkens product, not just glue or preservative dipping. ;D

Try Sikkens Kodrin WV 456 to seal end grain. Does what it says on the pot 8-)

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How to make a sash window

Post by jfc » Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

I use exterior PVA for all my joinery , staircases , windows , doors , wardrobes ..... The only other glue i use is extramite ( cascamite ) and i only use that for marine joinery .

I did some windows for someone in the summer and they painted the windows with preserve first . It kept bleeding out through the paint :o

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How to make a sash window

Post by jfc » Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:48 pm

Now all the sashes are cleaned up its time for the fancy touches and fittings .

Fluting the faces


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Making sure it all fits together on the template and fitting packing peices so it all goes back together right when on site




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Checking everything runs and fits perfectly




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How to make a sash window

Post by engineerone » Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:33 pm

looks really good jason, and thanks for the lessons 8-)

paul ;)

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How to make a sash window

Post by paulchapman » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:10 pm

Great job, Jason.

Cheers ;)

Paul

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How to make a sash window

Post by jake » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:14 pm

Looking good, Jason

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Post by jfc » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:12 pm

Not alot to show now untill they are done .

The brushes fitted for the top sash and the top sash spirel in its rebate .


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Post by jfc » Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:26 pm

Fitting the brush and carrier into the meeting rail and rebating out for the spirel connector . Mighton supply two types of connection as standard but i like the hidden ones so you need to order double the amount of fixing packs to get them .


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Knock the parting bead into its rebate




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and finally the staff bead , this also has a brush and carrier rebated into it




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And thats it , easy innit ;D

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How to make a sash window

Post by jfc » Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:59 pm

Thats it apart from the glazing beads that i forgot to fit ::)

The bottom glazing bead of the top sash is flat and flush with the top of the top sash . I have made it to fit into a rebate as the bottom rail of the top sash is 10mm thicker to allow for the meeting rail . It's flat to allow for a lock to be fitted .

I tried to get some better pics of the over all window now i can move it off its template , or is that a rod ;D



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How to make a sash window

Post by jonnyd » Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:29 pm

Looking Good.

Is it normal to not have horns on the bottom sashes in london. Virtually all the ones up here have them on the bottom sashes.

Do you find it easy to put the spirals in the frame I presume it doesnt weaken the sash as much? I might try it next time i have to use them.

jon
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Post by jfc » Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:43 pm

Now you mention it , it is quite a rare thing to see horns on the bottom sash in London . I have seen a few with it but most dont have it . No idea why , maybe they have been cut off or maybe it was a cost saving thing as most of London was built in stops and starts by certain builders ??? Adding to that i have worked in some houses where what would have been the servents quarters didnt have horns on the bottom sashes ( Inside ) but the rest of the house did . Funny how architecture even then was just for show and they would cut back on costs at every chance .

I switched to putting the spirels in the frame because putting them in the sash was cutting out the haunch in the mortice and tenon . You still need to make a small rebate for the fixing to hold the spirel but it doesnt effect the structure of the joint . It also looks alot nicer .

mrgrimsdale
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How to make a sash window

Post by mrgrimsdale » Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:25 pm

My theory is that horns are nearly always just on the top sash of large-pane lights with just one or two panes; because they are heavier (thicker glass) and the horn strengthens the weight bearing joint. On the bottom sash there is no weight at the meeting rail.
On earlier lightweight multi-pane sashes the gazing bars are structural i.e. the vertical ones go through and join the meeting rails and top or bottom rail, so horns are less needed. You get them occasionally but often just fairly delicate designs.

cheers
Jacob

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Post by jfc » Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:30 pm

Sounds good to me , with the horns you can do a wedged M&T .

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Post by agbagb » Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:11 pm

Nice one Jason, thanks for build details.
One thing I've noticed is the outside linings and parting beads meet the cill. A detail I've picked up on, is to cut these away so water won't sit behind them. An alternative that would be to glue in little wedge behind the lining.
Cheers,
Andy

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Post by jfc » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:54 pm

Hmmm , your cill should be chamfered where the parting bead meets it so very little water will sit there , although this is the first place trad joinery tends to rot so you do have a point . I will let the customer know that in 70 years this may be cause for concern ;D
The small wedge idea is a bad one i think as small details / mouldings on external joinery are always where rot starts .

I agree with what you are saying but if i left a gap under the parting bead i am 100% sure i would get pulled on it as a bad job ::)

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How to make a sash window

Post by trousers » Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:08 pm

Really interesting thread - and thanks Jason for starting it and for the pics. Obviously there are regional variations in looks and design of sash windows, but also importance of the property? Mine have got the horn :o on the bottom and the top sashes which are approx 4' x 3' each (dont even mention heat loss) and the glass is only 3mm thick. I just love it when I get the cold call from the DG people saying they are in my area and doing a special offer ::). Its in a conservation area etc but have they bothered to find that out? Have they f...
Mine are 110 years old and the wood (very close growth rings and red/brown in colour so poss douglas fir?) is as good as the day they were put in. I am putting in some draughtstripping as I do each one up (sorry Mr G). Also I have used the Dulux exterior primer/ucoat/gloss system and all I can say is the ones I did 10 years ago are still in great nick (the gloss has faded but the paint is still on) but nevertheless due a going over.
I can cremate your machine free of charge

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How to make a sash window

Post by jfc » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:22 pm

I fitted these today and i think they are as close to a traditional sash window as you can get with modern regs included .





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How to make a sash window

Post by woodsmith » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:10 am

This has been a really interesting thread and the finished article looks great. The proportions are perfect. Now all they have to do is make the rest of the house as good as the window!!
Keith

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How to make a sash window

Post by paulchapman » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:32 am

Great job and great thread, Jason.

Cheers ;)

Paul

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How to make a sash window

Post by telos » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:06 am

I can only second (third or fourth) those thoughts.

An excellent job, well done - brilliant photos from start to finish.

Only comment I would make is have you ever considered supplying your work ready-primed, so it doesn't get ruined by not being treated immediately? Would be rather tragic if some muppet painted it - or it doesn't get primed for a month....

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How to make a sash window

Post by jake » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:04 am

Telos wrote:Would be rather tragic if some muppet painted it - or it doesn't get primed for a month....
I can see both those tragedies just around the corner.

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How to make a sash window

Post by tusses » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:01 pm

Looking Good J 8-)

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Post by modernist » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:40 pm

Excellent job - and thread - maybe reach for the Holkham paint?

cheers

Brian
Cheers

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Post by jake » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:02 pm

The customer might freeze his ar*e off with the sashes out waiting for that to dry, though.

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Post by jfc » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:16 pm

I have tried priming work but it bumps the price up and means i cant get on with anything as the wet paint gets covered in saw dust . Plus i hate painting . Spraying is an option but i only spray water based paints as i think the smell of spirit based paints may annoy the neigbours . I primed the backs on this one as i was fitting it . I find people are normally happy to cut the cost by painting it themselves .

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How to make a sash window

Post by jonnyd » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:50 pm

Looks good and its been good to see it from start to finish. My only very slight criticism is that the hardwood cill looks a little on the thin side. How many hours has it taken?

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Post by jfc » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:31 pm

A bit thin ??? Maybe because a trad sash is alot thinner so the fall on the chamfer leaves more material . I cant see making it any thicker would have any benifit . As for how long , i dunno , when did the thread start .

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Post by jonnyd » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:41 pm

I am used to seeing cills made from ex 3inch stock which gives a thicker section size. It is probably just an aesthetic thing and as you say probably has no real benefit.

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How to make a sash window

Post by mrgrimsdale » Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:38 pm

Windows look good Jason.
sills: They seem to be all ex 6x3" as a rule, but thicker timber tends to rot sooner - it all gets wet but thick stuff takes longer to dry, and when the paint gets really bad it doesn't dry at all.
The best sills I saw were in Ireland, done from 3x3" with the whole of the front part being left off completely, leaving just the bit under the bottom sash. It was also set back by 1/4" so the bottom sash would drain off direct to the stone sill without hitting any wood at all. This also meant that the bottom of the boxes also were open to the masonry, so water could drain out from there too. They hadn't been painted in living memory (which is a long time in Ireland!) probably since before the war, and if I had had a workshop nearby I could have repaired them as they weren't so bad, but at a distance had to make copies instead.
I've never seen any others done like this. For all I know they are common elsewhere, or in Ireland. Dunno.
I'll see if I can find a snap.

cheers
Jacob

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Re: How to make a sash window

Post by jfc » Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:39 pm

Bumped because someone was looking for the topic :oops:

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Re: How to make a sash window

Post by bdshim » Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:54 pm

Great read thanks for taking the time to post.
I have a traditional one to make but useing traditional weights and pulleys.

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