Critique please as they say over there!

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modernist
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Critique please as they say over there!

Postby modernist » Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:21 am

First attempt at the coffee table

Image

Image

Frame Honduras Mahog or Cherry top Sycamore

Fire away - please :lol:
Cheers

Brian


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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby mark270981 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:09 am

Not to my taste as I prefer chunky stuff.

However I would prefer the tops of legs to be inset into the top
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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby mrgrimsdale » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:41 am

Critique eh? As long as it doesn't involve 'hollow forms' (objects formerly known as urns).

Legs look a bit flimsy? What about doubling them up like the Finn Juhl table?
Chassis is light and perhaps bendy so the top would have to be either very stable ( framed, panelled, ply etc) or lightly attached.

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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby riley » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:47 am

I like the profile you've got on the rails. In my opinion, I'd prefer rectangular top for a coffee table, but that's just me.
As Jacob said, not sure the undercarriage can withstand the stress from the top moving, or are you using board material for the top?
What are the dimensions?

Overall, looking good to me.

Adam.

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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby Mr Ed » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:12 am

I like the rail profile and the curved line of the rail underside. I would worry, as I said on the first incarnation of this, that it would be tippy with the offset legs and big overhang. That potential overturning would put a lot of load onto the joint at the tops of the legs, which being only joined to a single rail doesn't have the stability of your traditional 2 rail setup on a conventional table.

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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby OryxDesign » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:35 am

I think the legs sticking out look nice but if space is tight I recon I'd curse them every time my shin hit one.

I guess the top will be veneered and I 'd like to see a detail on the leg joint.

Looking forward to seeing this in the timber

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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby tusses » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:51 am

I like the legs and frame, but can't imagine I'd like the plain top. It looks a bit planted on.
I do think is would work very well if the top was glass .

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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby ftacarpentry » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:56 am

I like it... I think I would through tennon the rails into the legs, then use a contrasting wedge material. Cut it all of flush and it would give just a little bit of detail.

Has anyone else seen the most recent Fine Woodworking? The little scraper that had been doctored to cut narrow banding into surfaces looks v. neat. Maybe a little of that detail in one or two of the corners of the top or on the top of the legs, mimicking the subtle curve? (apologies if you haven't seen it!)

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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby mattty » Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:51 am

I really like it. It looks designed to be made in steel and glass though. As Ed says there will be a lot of stress on the joints and although easy to make in timber i'm not sure how well it will hold up. Maybe increasing the leg and rail section slightly, and widening the curved end of the rails and legs would help too.

I like the gentle curve to the leg and rails and I also think some subtle wedged tenon details would be nice and beneficial to the strength. I think the key to the overall effect will be very subtle edge treatment of the legs and top.
Cheers, Matt.

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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby promhandicam » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:20 pm

How about having a glass square in the centre of the top in line with the square in the frame? Oh, and I'm not sure that I like the handles. :lol:

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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby woodsmith » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:51 pm

It does look a bit tippy up at the corners. I think you could increase the top part of the T section of the rails to at least the full width of the legs, it's hidden from view, and an increase in depth of the I part of the T would not be so noticeable and would further strengthen the leg joint.
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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby modernist » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:01 pm

Well thanks guys at least it generated a reaction.
I think all the comments are valid and here a response.

The original was indeed chromed steel and glass

Yes it would work with a timber frame and glass top

I am keen to try a straight cove mould along the rails together with a profile on the underside to achieve the combined shape. There is a similar profile on the outside edge only of each leg.

The size of the original and this is 1200mm square x 320 high but I agree rectangular may work better and could be higher

The rail section is 20mm thick and broadened from 50 to 75mm at the leg joint. It could be through wedged tenons but I was hoping to use a pair of doms, one vertical and one horizontal, at the leg joint.

I intend the top to be solid sycamore 20mm thick edge jointed (possibly with a mahogany veneer between each board). I would screw it at the centre and have slotted screws towards the outer edges. (I am hoping Ed can spray this with clear laquer for me :D ) I would drill for the screw head with a dom slot behind rather than expect the screw head to slide in a slot.

I don't really see it as tippy but I could increase the rail section for more rigidity. Currently it is coved to half it's depth and that now appears too thin.
Cheers

Brian


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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby OryxDesign » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:06 pm

I don't think it'd be 'tippy' either

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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby modernist » Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:37 pm

Mk 2

Image

I think I prefer the glass top and at least you can then see the profiles.

Now 1230 x 930 x 420
Cheers

Brian


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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby jake » Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:51 pm

Much better with glass (make sure you get low iron glass), as this is all about the underframe.

I would edge the legs outwards a bit, as then the inner square will brace it all a bit more.

Is the profile on both sides of the rails?

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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby modernist » Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:54 pm

jake wrote:Much better with glass (make sure you get low iron glass), as this is all about the underframe.

I would edge the legs outwards a bit, as then the inner square will brace it all a bit more.

Is the profile on both sides of the rails?


I'd just come to the same conclusion about the legs. When the top was square they were 250m in from each corner but than now needs to be amended for the rectangular top with the associated benefit. Moulded one side only (originally on the basis that was all you could see) but also to allow a deeper cove. I might also lop 50mm off the legs.

What is low iron glass?
Cheers

Brian


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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby jake » Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:57 pm

Low iron glass doesn't have the green tinge of normal glass - more expensive but given you are showing off the timber underneath it will be worth it.

I think it would might look more Danish with the same curve on both sides, and blending the curve all the up to the top of the rail. It's a bit half-way between the stark rectilinear original and the full on organic flowing curve look at the moment. Still nice, so feel free to ignore me!

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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby modernist » Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:06 pm

jake wrote:Low iron glass doesn't have the green tinge of normal glass - more expensive but given you are showing off the timber underneath it will be worth it.

I think it would might look more Danish with the same curve on both sides, and blending the curve all the up to the top of the rail. It's a bit half-way between the stark rectilinear original and the full on organic flowing curve look at the moment. Still nice, so feel free to ignore me!


The problem is keeping the light structural appearance and enough meat for the joints in the centre rectangle. By leaving the inside flat the joints will be easier/stronger and the sections thinner. I haven't yet finalised the joints in the centre. I suppose twin through tenons or two dominos.

Thanks for the info on the glass.
Cheers

Brian


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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby tusses » Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:46 pm

That's really nice Brian ! what a good idea :)

Like that a lot

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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby modernist » Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:13 pm

tusses wrote:That's really nice Brian ! what a good idea :)

Like that a lot


I'm perfectly happy to steal good ideas from anyone :D
Cheers

Brian


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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby sainty » Sat Feb 23, 2013 7:12 pm

Interesting idea Brian but I think that the design is lacking interest somewhere. It's the legs I think, they need a little something - no idea what though. HTH. lol.

Perhaps a larger curve?

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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby modernist » Sat Feb 23, 2013 7:40 pm

sainty wrote:Interesting idea Brian but I think that the design is lacking interest somewhere. It's the legs I think, they need a little something - no idea what though. HTH. lol.

Perhaps a larger curve?


I'll try it.
Cheers

Brian


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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby jake » Sat Feb 23, 2013 7:54 pm

You could head further away from the inspiration and deeper into the possibilities of timber rather than chromed steel.

Maybe pull the top up of a leg like this:

Image

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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby promhandicam » Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:22 pm

The glass top is definitely the way to go but I preferred it square I have to say. As the legs aren't centred or symmetrical I personally think it looks odd now.

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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby modernist » Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:23 pm

jake wrote:You could head further away from the inspiration and deeper into the possibilities of timber rather than chromed steel.

Maybe pull the top up of a leg like this:

Image


Very nice.I had been thinking about a cove or round on the outside of the leg - time yet.
Cheers

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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby modernist » Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:26 pm

promhandicam wrote:The glass top is definitely the way to go but I preferred it square I have to say. As the legs aren't centred or symmetrical I personally think it looks odd now.


It is symmetrica-lish but I've still got to move the legs on the short side further out a la Jake earlier. I'm not sure this will work as they will no longer be equidistant from the corner and may look odd. More drawing needed (far be it from me to design on the hoof :lol: ) I am trying to reform.
Cheers

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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby sgiandubh » Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:29 pm

Brian, I can't help finding the position of the legs visually uncomfortable-- the corners overhang too much for me leading to a sense that leaning on a corner could cause the whole thing to tilt up. Going by the dimensions you've given I don't think that will actually happen, but it gives the visual impression of instability. In other words, The legs are too close to the centre of each edge in my opinion. At the moment, if you divide the length of each side by 4, it looks as if each leg is almost a quarter of the length in from each corner. Try moving each leg nearer the corner, say, roughly an eighth of each edge's length from the corner.

I'm also not keen on one side of the leg being straight with the other side curved. Consider curving both sides of the leg in a dagger like shape with the narrow end towards the floor. And if you're going to use glass for the top, why not consider doing something a bit more visually interesting with the rails, eg, create curved laminated rails to join the legs with some sort of connection linking all the laminations in the middle of the table top? Slainte.

Edit- attached is a first very rough sketch. If I was intent on working the idea up to a resolved design solution, which I'm not, it would need more work. It's generally ragged to start with, proportions and placement of the legs are out-- the legs are too thin; perspective is wonky, and I'd spend more time trying to resolve the flow of the laminated rails to a point I found worked aesthetically. Anyway, just my reaction to your ideas as they've evolved in this thread, and some suggestions-- all of which you may dislike intensely, ha, ha.
Attachments
table-700px.jpg

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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby mrgrimsdale » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:30 am

Another version of the off the corner leg design. Josef Albers 1923

Image

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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby modernist » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:35 am

mrgrimsdale wrote:Another version of the off the corner leg design. Josef Albers 1923

Image


That's very nice Jacob, perhaps I should make one of those instead. :D
Cheers

Brian


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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby OryxDesign » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:36 am

mrgrimsdale wrote:Another version of the off the corner leg design. Josef Albers 1923

Image


I like that :!: , it looks surprisingly modern for 1923 :)

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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby modernist » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:43 am

They do, in many ways we have gone backwards. I've got a spare sheet of Wenge MDF in the rack so it's tempting.

This is the original kindly rooted out by Jake

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Kjaer ... B320%3B290

Whilst it is good to hear the views of friends on here there is also a danger of a design by committee which can end up grey by trying to please everyone. Please don't think me ungrateful as the comments have been very useful in testing my thinking and offering alternatives.

I think I shall make a few mods to the leg spacing and leg profile then go for it in the certain knowledge that half the viewers will think it is rubbish.
Cheers

Brian


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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby mrgrimsdale » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:47 am

OryxDesign wrote:
mrgrimsdale wrote:Another version of the off the corner leg design. Josef Albers 1923

......

I like that :!: , it looks surprisingly modern for 1923 :)
A year late. Modernism (the term) was invented in 1922, though the idea and the style is much older.

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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby sgiandubh » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:27 am

modernist wrote: Whilst it is good to hear the views of friends on here there is also a danger of a design by committee which can end up grey by trying to please everyone.

Brian, that explains why I never ask anyone on woodworking forums about any design I'm working up to a solution. I just get on and do it, and the first anyone on a forum will know about it is if they happen to look on my website after the project is made and photographed, or if I put it up in a forum as an example of a new piece.

However, you did ask, and the way your project started and was evolving caught my interest, which doesn't normally happen when I see requests for design input (probably because I spend a great deal of my time helping students with this kind of thing), so I did throw an idea or two into the ring, ha, ha. Slainte.

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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby cncpaul » Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:44 pm

sgiandubh wrote:Brian, I can't help finding the position of the legs visually uncomfortable-- the corners overhang too much for me leading to a sense that leaning on a corner could cause the whole thing to tilt up. Going by the dimensions you've given I don't think that will actually happen, but it gives the visual impression of instability. In other words, The legs are too close to the centre of each edge in my opinion. At the moment, if you divide the length of each side by 4, it looks as if each leg is almost a quarter of the length in from each corner. Try moving each leg nearer the corner, say, roughly an eighth of each edge's length from the corner.

I'm also not keen on one side of the leg being straight with the other side curved. Consider curving both sides of the leg in a dagger like shape with the narrow end towards the floor. And if you're going to use glass for the top, why not consider doing something a bit more visually interesting with the rails, eg, create curved laminated rails to join the legs with some sort of connection linking all the laminations in the middle of the table top? Slainte.

Edit- attached is a first very rough sketch. If I was intent on working the idea up to a resolved design solution, which I'm not, it would need more work. It's generally ragged to start with, proportions and placement of the legs are out-- the legs are too thin; perspective is wonky, and I'd spend more time trying to resolve the flow of the laminated rails to a point I found worked aesthetically. Anyway, just my reaction to your ideas as they've evolved in this thread, and some suggestions-- all of which you may dislike intensely, ha, ha.


Richard,

Why have you changed a design from a style the Brian was fairly happy with to something you think looks better and drastically different, instead of just a few tweaks ?
Paul

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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby mrgrimsdale » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:19 pm

cncpaul wrote:
sgiandubh wrote:.....


Richard,

Why have you changed a design from a style the Brian was fairly happy with to something you think looks better and drastically different, instead of just a few tweaks ?

"Critique" is supposed to mean more than just criticism and can involve a ramble around the topic as a whole including meandering off in all directions, such as Richard's. In other words a more general discussion.
And I'm sure Brian will make his own mind up about what to take notice of or ignore!
"Hollow form" on the other hand means "URN". :lol:

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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby mark270981 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:00 pm

I really wish I had an eye for design as the table Jacob has posted up looks rather quite good and very pleasing to my eye.
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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby modernist » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:35 pm

mark270981 wrote:I really wish I had an eye for design as the table Jacob has posted up looks rather quite good and very pleasing to my eye.


In fact it looks so good I've added it to the project list.

Stuff all the stained oak - get some mod stuff out there.
Cheers

Brian


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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby modernist » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:36 pm

BTW I agree with all the comments above, Slainte, Paul and Jacob.

And I value and appreciate all the contributions, the real problem is silence :lol:
Cheers

Brian


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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby sgiandubh » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:37 pm

cncpaul wrote: Richard, Why have you changed a design from a style the Brian was fairly happy with to something you think looks better and drastically different, instead of just a few tweaks ?

Because Brian asked for input Paul. There were design motifs and elements I thought would be interesting to explore further, so I aired them. I'm sure Brian is very capable of ignoring my input if he finds it unhelpful, but he did ask for commentary and critique (presumably because he hadn't resolved all the issues to his satisfaction on his own) so I gave it. Slainte.

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Re: Critique please as they say over there!

Postby mark270981 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:50 pm

modernist wrote:
mark270981 wrote:I really wish I had an eye for design as the table Jacob has posted up looks rather quite good and very pleasing to my eye.


In fact it looks so good I've added it to the project list.

Stuff all the stained oak - get some mod stuff out there.


get racking then, I am looking to seeing how it turns out ;)
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