Past project

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:34 pm

Oldboy22 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:25 pm
You need to transfer that paper template for two pieces of ply or thin mdf, hardboard.and follow this picture
tangent geometry.jpg

The trouble with a lot of these old drawings is that they leave as many questions unanswered as they actually provide.

For example:

1) Why is that top template slid over to the right a bit ?

2) The top template is laid on top of the new tangent lines ('new' as in the new tangent lines drawn after the bevel has been marked on the ends of the blank). Correct ?

3) The ends of the top template are square to the new tangent on the template as is the face of the block its laid on. Correct ?

4) The drawing doesn't make clear if the tangents on the bottom template are lined up with the new tangents that have been offset from those on the top surface by virtue of the angle of the bevel. I assume that they are ...yes?

5) Assuming that all of the above are true, what the drawing does not make clear is that the ends of the bottom template will not line up at the same angle on the face of the block as they did on the upper template. This is because relative to the top template, the bottom template is skewed round. This can perplex anyone new to this. As it did me until I realised that this was how it was meant to be.

6) The drawing does not mention that the way the bevels are oriented is only valid for a particular type of wreath and that the bevels could lean the other way, or not at all or only lean one-way and the other remain square to the centre line. This confused the hell out of me.
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:49 pm

I am assuming that the line marked with an arrow is the position of minimum twist ?

Image
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:08 pm

The red arrow has nothing to do with it.

Cut the wreath on the bandsaw to the shape of the wreath cut 10mm outside the line for now ,slide the two templates to the new tangent positions top and bottom draw around the templates in the new position (as determined by the twist bevel) these lines should line up with the twisted sections on the end of the blank but taper as shown. Cut at the angle of the twist along these lines, but no further, it should line up with the one cut on the other side, and so on as shown working the two ends together to form the to be the vertical sides of the handrail. Only when the sides are done , work the top and bottom keeping it square to the sides . Finished

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Re: Past project

Post by Meccarroll » Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:30 pm

This all seems to be moving along nicely, I do hope all goes well.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:32 pm

Thank you for the reply.

In your drawing you have this circle...
thr query 2.png
Reading in the various books, I came to the conclusion that that line defined the point at which the twist changed from one direction to the other. Zero twist and as such was a good 'reference' point to help with the cutting. At least, if I am right, it helps me.

Do you agree ? If I've got it wrong, what does that circle refer to ?
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:00 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:32 pm
Thank you for the reply.

In your drawing you have this circle...

thr query 2.png

Reading in the various books, I came to the conclusion that that line defined the point at which the twist changed from one direction to the other. Zero twist and as such was a good 'reference' point to help with the cutting. At least, if I am right, it helps me.

Do you agree ? If I've got it wrong, what does that circle refer to ?
That’s the neutral area one twist ends and the other starts, but I’m not sure you put that in, or the extra 50mm where it joins the straight rail, you got carried away and couldn’t wait to get in the workshop.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:30 pm

Thinking on it I’ve made a cockup you should add a straight bit to both ends and reduce the easing by that amount , I don’t know why I drew it like that but I did. You don’t put a straight bit where one twist joins another twist ,but of course the easing isn’t twisted . :oops:

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Re: Past project

Post by Meccarroll » Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:00 pm

Oldboy22 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:30 pm
Thinking on it I’ve made a cockup you should add a straight bit to both ends and reduce the easing by that amount , I don’t know why I drew it like that but I did. You don’t put a straight bit where one twist joins another twist ,but of course the easing isn’t twisted . :oops:
Check Mowat Page 210, 211.

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Re: Past project

Post by Meccarroll » Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:14 pm

My latest Drawing of Rodgers Quarter Turn, re drawn because my Cad Programme seems to think kindly of wiping my saved files into oblivion for no reason!!!

Image

Fortunately I managed to print the wreath out before it disappeared so I stand a chance of testing the results of my drawing.
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Rodger wreath.jpg

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:19 pm

Looking good, can’t wait to see it.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:40 pm

Oldboy22 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:30 pm
Thinking on it I’ve made a cockup you should add a straight bit to both ends and reduce the easing by that amount , I don’t know why I drew it like that but I did. You don’t put a straight bit where one twist joins another twist ,but of course the easing isn’t twisted . :oops:
That's what SCMS's are for ! Trimming.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:53 am

Anyone else had a try at the drawing ? The unequal pitch layout or the single twist posted earlier.
We would like to see them. It’s better than watching tv :D .

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Re: Past project

Post by Meccarroll » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:29 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:40 pm
Oldboy22 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:30 pm
Thinking on it I’ve made a cockup you should add a straight bit to both ends and reduce the easing by that amount , I don’t know why I drew it like that but I did. You don’t put a straight bit where one twist joins another twist ,but of course the easing isn’t twisted . :oops:
That's what SCMS's are for ! Trimming.

SCMS ? You are getting too good at this Rodger ;)

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:35 am

Meccarroll wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:29 am
thatsnotafestool wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:40 pm
Oldboy22 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:30 pm
Thinking on it I’ve made a cockup you should add a straight bit to both ends and reduce the easing by that amount , I don’t know why I drew it like that but I did. You don’t put a straight bit where one twist joins another twist ,but of course the easing isn’t twisted . :oops:
That's what SCMS's are for ! Trimming.

SCMS ? You are getting too good at this Rodger ;)
Well I did have to go and buy this second hand monster !

Image

The depth of cut is also needed for a Japanese Moon bridge that LOML wants made. Then it gets sold on.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:54 am

Oldboy22 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:30 pm
Thinking on it I’ve made a cockup you should add a straight bit to both ends and reduce the easing by that amount , I don’t know why I drew it like that but I did. You don’t put a straight bit where one twist joins another twist ,but of course the easing isn’t twisted . :oops:
Revised drawing showing how reducing the length of the easing affects the radius of the easing, and needs cutting both ends, and to a different radius.

Old position in red.
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0BC9C704-3011-41F2-9AED-24539D8778CD.jpeg

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:30 am

It’s gone quite on here, :D I’m hoping to see some wreaths soon.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:43 am

It's so hard getting that twist out of the wood. Making sure that you're gradually rotating the faces.

Any tips ?
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Re: Past project

Post by Meccarroll » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:20 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:43 am
It's so hard getting that twist out of the wood. Making sure that you're gradually rotating the faces.

Any tips ?

1. Make a board stand on edge vertically near to the bandsaw blade so you can use it to rest the Wreath on wile you do the cuts. Round over the top edge of the board so the wreath slides easily.

You need a base board laying flat to the table surface and screw a tall board edge on to that then clamp the device to the bandsaw table and you have a nice guide tool to rest the wreath on for cutting.

2. Use two thin MDF/Ply face mould templates and pin these on each face lining them in the correct position (Slip them). You can use these to help guide your cuts. Without them you will be working partly blind.

3. Use the MDF/Ply face mould templates as a guide for band-sawing.

4. Work on the sides first, so you keep your reference points, then move on to the top and bottom.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bi0C3ea0-7k

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:04 pm

And count your fingers after, be careful

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:46 am

How about something like this , different variations around. I would always clean up with a nice sharp block plane or spoke shave.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:40 pm

Meccarroll

How’s it going ? Had a chance to have a go at it yet, I’m looking forward to seeing it .
Hope you took/ take some stage photos.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:47 pm

Here's a few photos, Mark. I can see the advantage now of a ply template. I couldn't before.

Image
Image
Image
Image

I've tried a mixture of devices.

Power plane - apart from the fact that it's a really horrible manky one from a DIY shed - you can't easily see what you're doing.
Belt sander - ditto.
Angle grinder with :

flap wheel - not bad
Saburrtooth - excellent

Axminster carver Image - hairy but gets the job done.

Microplane - too slow

The trouble with a lot of these is that their cutting action is rotary and so you've still got the scalloped areas to work out flat. Saburrtooth do a flat wheel but it'a not that flat and TBH not much more use than the curved one that I have. I was going to send it back unopened to Axminster but thought..better try it..you never know. So I did and it isn't.

I'm waiting for an adapter to use a Flexcut chisel in my Bosch power chisel that I've had for donkeys' years and had totally forgotten about.
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Re: Past project

Post by Meccarroll » Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:14 pm

Oldboy22 wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:40 pm
Meccarroll

How’s it going ? Had a chance to have a go at it yet, I’m looking forward to seeing it .
Hope you took/ take some stage photos.
I have been doing the garden, tidying the garage and making an ellipse jig so not had time to take things any further. My CAD programme is quite dated and a bit glitchy which has made me re draw the tangents more than once. I did print the originals out but then the CAD programme decided to delete the files so I lost them. After taking a look at the wood I needed to do a test run I decided to scale down the operation (it's Just for fun) so made another drawing and printed it out at 70% of original size and that's about where I am now.

The ellipse jig I have been making is sfor ply templates and will be refined over time. Now you and Rodger have rekindled my interest in Tangent Hand-railing I intend developing my knowledge further. I have most of the parts for a CNC Router and think a CNC could be very useful for templates etc. It's just if I ever get the time to build it.

I'm at full time work so although I enjoy this subject I have to fit it in as and when I can, although I do intend making the part from the drawings asap.

It's very rare to find someone who has an understanding of Tangent Hand-railing and so nice you have joined this forum Oldboy22 to contribute, I do hope you will be sticking around.

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Re: Past project

Post by Meccarroll » Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:24 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:47 pm
Here's a few photos, Mark. I can see the advantage now of a ply template.
Do transfer all of the relevant markings to the template including the Tangent lines and Minor Axis as this will allow you to use the Minor Axis as a reference point when lining up and cutting the wreath.

Thin ply/MDF templates are best.

You can drill holes in the template and these should help alignment of tangents lines when slipping.

By the way, Excellent work Rodger.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:55 am

Meccarroll
If you follow my previous advices and work the new vertical surfaces first it’s easier to hold in the vice, two parallel surfaces to grip.

If you then cut a piece of paper or thin card the thickness of the rail and long enough, you can lay it on the vertical surfaces lining up with the new top and underside surface, it will need tweaking as you draw your lines because it wants to crease, but I find it useful.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:02 am

Oldboy22 wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:55 am
Meccarroll
If you follow my previous advices and work the new vertical surfaces first it’s easier to hold in the vice, two parallel surfaces to grip.
I got round that problem by getting one if these. It's excellent.

Image
Oldboy22 wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:55 am
If you then cut a piece of paper or thin card the thickness of the rail and long enough, you can lay it on the vertical surfaces lining up with the new top and underside surface, it will need tweaking as you draw your lines because it wants to crease, but I find it useful.
That's a great tip. My only trouble is that I find getting the sides done without at least a hint of the top and bottom surfaces also being done a bit tricky.
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Re: Past project

Post by Meccarroll » Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:10 pm

Oldboy22 wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:55 am
Meccarroll
If you follow my previous advices and work the new vertical surfaces first it’s easier to hold in the vice, two parallel surfaces to grip.

I was aware of that sides come first oldboy22 .

If you then cut a piece of paper or thin card the thickness of the rail and long enough, you can lay it on the vertical surfaces lining up with the new top and underside surface, it will need tweaking as you draw your lines because it wants to crease, but I find it useful.
Cheers I was aware the sides come first.

I am applying the methodology of W & A Mowat which uses the minor axis to determine the crossover points for the wreath and from that point I was going to use a series of diminishing vertical marks from where the twist starts and then finish at the point of minor axis.

I have two short shanks either end of the wreath which will be taken into consideration regarding the fall.

I'll look at using the paper, cheers for that oldboy22.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:10 pm

Meccarroll wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:10 pm
....
I am applying the methodology of W & A Mowat which uses the minor axis to determine the crossover points for the wreath and from that point I was going to use a series of diminishing vertical marks from where the twist starts and then finish at the point of minor axis.
....
I'm misunderstanding this, Mark. Isn't this going round in a circle ? Use the minor axis as the crossover point and from there ....finish there ?
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Re: Past project

Post by Meccarroll » Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:07 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:10 pm
Meccarroll wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:10 pm
....
I am applying the methodology of W & A Mowat which uses the minor axis to determine the crossover points for the wreath and from that point I was going to use a series of diminishing vertical marks from where the twist starts and then finish at the point of minor axis.
....
I'm misunderstanding this, Mark. Isn't this going round in a circle ? Use the minor axis as the crossover point and from there ....finish there ?
page 132 of diCristina's book should explain Rodger. The cross over point is where the minor axis is so I would work to that point but then still carry on. The end the middle and the start, are all points of reference for where you draw your lines to. In this case the minor axis is the middle point. Look at the isometric drawing on page 132.

Set off your rail height at the minor axis and use the rail height at that point to draw your lines to.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:46 am

And I thought I was an early bird!

Thanks for the references, Mark
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:50 am

Don’t you boys sleep? yes the aim is a continuous falling line.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:19 am

Meccarroll wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:07 am
thatsnotafestool wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:10 pm
Meccarroll wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:10 pm
....
I am applying the methodology of W & A Mowat which uses the minor axis to determine the crossover points for the wreath and from that point I was going to use a series of diminishing vertical marks from where the twist starts and then finish at the point of minor axis.
....
I'm misunderstanding this, Mark. Isn't this going round in a circle ? Use the minor axis as the crossover point and from there ....finish there ?
page 132 of diCristina's book should explain Rodger. The cross over point is where the minor axis is so I would work to that point but then still carry on. The end the middle and the start, are all points of reference for where you draw your lines to. In this case the minor axis is the middle point. Look at the isometric drawing on page 132.

Set off your rail height at the minor axis and use the rail height at that point to draw your lines to.
Looking at Plate 70 page 132, the line O-O looks to be on a slant. Is that correct (I think it is and is there by virtue of sliding the face mould) ?
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:33 am

I,ll leave Meccarroll to answer above.

Thatsnotafestool any chance you can post a finished drawing showing how you drew the ellipse and bevels?, I don’t think you have shown this yet.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:41 am

Here you go
58mm handrail.png
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:51 am

Thanks for that all looks good , well done.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:55 am

Oldboy22 wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:51 am
Thanks for that all looks good , well done.
Thank you for all your help. I can now do one of these in about 30 minutes !
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:22 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:55 am
Oldboy22 wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:51 am
Thanks for that all looks good , well done.
Thank you for all your help. I can now do one of these in about 30 minutes !
It’s like everything, easy when you know how.
The scroll should be a piece of cake after this.

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Re: Past project

Post by Meccarroll » Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:02 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:19 am


Looking at Plate 70 page 132, the line O-O looks to be on a slant. Is that correct (I think it is and is there by virtue of sliding the face mould) ?
Sorry for the late reply Rodger I've been at work.

You are correct.

If you stand the wreath in an upright position as it will be when fit to the stairs, that slanted line should stand Plumb. It is a very good indicator to work to.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:22 pm

Thanks Mark.

I've been looking for a better way get the basic shape and wanted to try out my 20+ year old Bosch power chisel. It’s still in production clearly as you can get an adapter to take large Flexcut chisels. I paid a £6 premium and ordered an adapter from Axminster for pre-12pm delivery today.

It never arrived. So politely contacted Axminster customer service who investigated and apologised..”Sent to the wrong depot”…who knows. Refunded my £6. Coming tomorrow.

Well, Axminster certainly worked a miracle and for which my grateful thanks. I have just had a special delivery of my parcel. All the way from Carlisle depot to my home. One big DPD van just with my little parcel inside it….LOL!

Just had to try out the power chisel. Yeeee….harrr. Bloody brilliant.
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:26 am

OK...I'm scratching my head now because before I committed to marking up and cutting the walnut, I decided to revisit everything and have come across one problem that I don't see addressed anywhere. It's to do with marking the bevels and also sliding the template.

If you look at both of these drawings

From p132 of di Cristina - Plate 70
bevel line direction 2.jpg
and Workshop Geometry..
workshop geometry.png
The cross-sectional area of block required is defined by the dimensions of the twisted bevel (ie by how much the bevel is twisted). Then after drawing the bevels on the faces (giving us the new tangent lines on top and bottom of the block, the bottom template is slid to line up with the 'new' tangents at either end. Notice though that in both drawings above, the amount of bevel twist (and hence cross-sectional area of the block) is the same at both ends.

However, my bevel twist is different at each end.

So I'm not sure what to do. I think I need to drop two lines down (X) at the less twisty end as per this drawing and line the template tangent line to these lines.
unequal bevel twist.png
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