Becoming fensa registered

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jfc
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Becoming fensa registered

Post by jfc »

Just been through the process as a sole trader and its really not all that bad .
There are quite a few surprises along the way .
When you first pay to become a fensa member you then get told you need an insurance backed guarantee . You have to become a member of another fensa approved organisation and pay for that .
You need to provide tax returns and accounts . You also need to supply both companies with paper work such as complaints procedure , workmanship guarantee , contracts , surveyors reports and £2 million public liability .
My Fensa rep was very helpful and sent me templates to re-word
Then you need to do an online assessment where they ask you loads of questions about plastic windows :o after that a Fensa rep comes out and does an on site assessment , basically watches you take out and fit a window or at least part of it so they are sure its you doing the work .
After all that you are approved and you get sent a link to your Fensa account where you can upload any details of jobs you have done to be approved by them and supply the ten year guarantee . Im yet to get to that bit but i think for each job its going to cost just under £40 for both of the above per job ( not per window ).
I will update if it changes but i am expecting the yearly cost to be just under £350 per year plus the £40 x how many jobs i do in the year .
Thats about the same as it costs to get Building control out for one job so not bad value .
Jason , Published and Fensa registered . :lol:
Meccarroll
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Re: Becoming fensa registered

Post by Meccarroll »

Nice little post Jason, keep us informed.
thatsnotafestool
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Re: Becoming fensa registered

Post by thatsnotafestool »

You keep accounts, Jas ? :o
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jfc
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Re: Becoming fensa registered

Post by jfc »

I'm on the ball me mate ! Well , my accountant is :lol:
Still waiting for my Fensa paperwork to arrive . Probably caught in the Christmas post .
I'm told there is a fuel card giving 10p off ever 1L of fuel . Not sure of the ins and outs of that but i have been told its free .
Also ive been given the option to supply credit to my customers . Not something ive gone for but its another benefit of being a Fensa member .
katellwood
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Re: Becoming fensa registered

Post by katellwood »

Jas

I dont make many windows now and if i do its supply only and limited to timber.

Do FENSA have a facility for this or do I need to stick to a Building Control Notice for approval

It sure does drag the process out.
Leveller2911
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Re: Becoming fensa registered

Post by Leveller2911 »

katellwood wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 2:34 pm Jas

I dont make many windows now and if i do its supply only and limited to timber.

Do FENSA have a facility for this or do I need to stick to a Building Control Notice for approval

It sure does drag the process out.
FENSA Certification is to do with the fitting of and compliance of the fitted windows meeting building regs so as you supply only windows it's down to the person who fits the windows to check compliance. So as an example If I make some double glazed or single glazed windows for a builder who then goes on to fit the windows the onus is on him to make sure they comply with regs and not me. I'm just making a product.If I fit any windows I make then it's down to me to prove compliance.
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Re: Becoming fensa registered

Post by Leveller2911 »

Personally I think FENSA is a big fat con. It's supposed to make sure the windows fitted meet regs and then signed off via a certificate which the client is suppose to have confidence in. What actually happens is the FENSA Registered company can sign off the work whether it complies or not. Over the years I've taken out Upvc/Timber windows which have FENSA certificates when they never met regs when originally fitted. Examples can be float glass when Toughened should have been fitted, no draught excluders, sealed units which never met the U value of 1.5 or below for replacement windows................Basically it's a club which people pay to join, yearly membership and based entirely on the integrity of the fitter which as we all know can be left on the front seat of the van........... FENSA Rarely check anyone I know who are members. Allowing people to mark their own homework is never a good idea and I will continue to go down the Council "Competent Persons Scheme" although expensive at least means A Building Control officer will turn up to mark my homework.

I would also point out that when someone is registered with FENSA they still need to consider whether or not an area is a Conservation area because I do know some companies who wrongly believed they could replace windows with what they wanted too in Conservation areas when in fact they should have contacted Conservation at the Local Council to see what they would allow. Fines can be high........ :)
jfc
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Re: Becoming fensa registered

Post by jfc »

katellwood wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 2:34 pm Jas

I dont make many windows now and if i do its supply only and limited to timber.

Do FENSA have a facility for this or do I need to stick to a Building Control Notice for approval

It sure does drag the process out.
As said it is to do with the fitting . I decided to become registered as in my area getting the council out just for 1-5 windows is double the cost of Fensa for a year . Plus im getting asked for a Fensa Certificate a lot lately . I'm guessing something has changed in the buying and selling surveys and people dont know a building notice is the same as a Fensa cert .
Theres always going to be people taking advantage of any system but i think if you take pride in your work and do things properly it just adds another tick to the box for your customers .
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Re: Becoming fensa registered

Post by Leveller2911 »

jfc wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:41 am
As said it is to do with the fitting . I decided to become registered as in my area getting the council out just for 1-5 windows is double the cost of Fensa for a year . Plus im getting asked for a Fensa Certificate a lot lately . I'm guessing something has changed in the buying and selling surveys and people dont know a building notice is the same as a Fensa cert .
Theres always going to be people taking advantage of any system but i think if you take pride in your work and do things properly it just adds another tick to the box for your customers .
I agree the Costs the Councils are charging are over the top but they are not the same thing Jase. In my 35+yrs in the Industry I've not once had a Building Inspector come even remotely close to giving the go ahead to avoid meeting regs. This just isn't the case with FENSA. The problem is they fail to inspect even close to the numbers they should be.FENSA is just a way of conning the Public into thinking the work to their homes has been carried out to meet a standard but in many cases they haven't. FENSA is a money making scheme firstly and compliance is second and it should be the other way round in my opinion. I have pride in my work but I don't believe in marking my own work.

Merry Christmas and all the Best for Next year.. :)
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Re: Becoming fensa registered

Post by jfc »

Thats your opinion and like i said there are always going to be some people that take advantage . Fensa was established because building control doesnt have time to look at every new window fitted . I was making windows when the EU law came into force so looked into it then . At the time everyone was trying to sell you window making things to comply .
Every time i have building control round they just look at the windows and say they are nice . They have never looked at how they are fitted or put a tester on the glass .
For me and i guess most of us here that make windows i think its a good thing now affordable . Its more about ticking a box for your customers than about you . Thats just my opinion .
Leveller2911
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Re: Becoming fensa registered

Post by Leveller2911 »

jfc wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 7:46 pm

For me and i guess most of us here that make windows i think its a good thing now affordable . Its more about ticking a box for your customers than about you . Thats just my opinion .

I agree, it's all about box ticking Jase. With Gas Safe, or NECIEC there are prison sentences and huge fines if a fitter fails to comply with regs and is found out. With FENSA there is none, they come out maybe if your lucky once a year and even then they ask when it is convenient :lol:
I make Joinery for 2 companies both FENSA members and like you they say its purely a box ticking excercise. The point is what does the client actually get out of it because unlike the Council building Inspectors they cannot be guaranteed the job meets regs. How do you feel about "Checkatrade" type memberships? most people who know about the industry know these types of schemes are purely clubs paid for by it's members and they don't like customers complaining bringing bad publicity and will always come down on the side of the people who are paying to be members/vested interest. I'm sure we all remember the COVID face mask procurement where vested interests promoted the contracts going to their own companies. I see little difference in the FENSA scheme. What they should do in employ more Building control inspectors, they have no reason to pass non compliant poor workmanship.

I genuinely don't see how FENSA is any different............What should be made clear to the public is the whole pyramid only remains upright based on the honesty and integrity of the companies fitting the products but that wouldn't sell confidence.All it does is make a few people wealthy with no benefit to the end user. Typical British scheme, costs an arm and a leg but with little to no benefit to the Public.

If it benefits you then go for it but in my opinion it's a sham.......... :)
jfc
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Re: Becoming fensa registered

Post by jfc »

It doesn't benefit me one little bit . In fact i nearly gave up because i didnt have the paper work in place and i was becoming a massive pain in the ar*e as well as costing me money .
It benefits my customers as they get a ten year insurance backed guarantee plus they dont have to pay for the cost of the building inspector just a smaller charge for the Fensa paper work that they will be asked for if they sell their house . You try telling a mortgage company that a building control notice is the same thing as a Fensa certificate . They will disagree as you did :lol:
I'll update on the costs in the new year when i put my first job through . Its a big one so should see what the maximum costs are .
woodsmith
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Re: Becoming fensa registered

Post by woodsmith »

I don’t think NECIEC is any better than FENSA. We’ve had to use electricians since the scheme started and some of them have been useless. I went to a house in the summer and had to rewire an outside socket she had just had fitted as it was lethal, no earth connected and the wrong gland and she said he was NECIEC registered. These schemes are not regulated enough which allows the cowboys to prosper and does a disservice to the decent tradesmen who do a good job.

One thing that surprised me though is I’ve just been looking on the FENSA website and I hadn’t realised Jason can now certify third party windows even after they have been fitted.
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Re: Becoming fensa registered

Post by Leveller2911 »

woodsmith wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:58 am I don’t think NECIEC is any better than FENSA. We’ve had to use electricians since the scheme started and some of them have been useless. I went to a house in the summer and had to rewire an outside socket she had just had fitted as it was lethal, no earth connected and the wrong gland and she said he was NECIEC registered. These schemes are not regulated enough which allows the cowboys to prosper and does a disservice to the decent tradesmen who do a good job.

One thing that surprised me though is I’ve just been looking on the FENSA website and I hadn’t realised Jason can now certify third party windows even after they have been fitted.

That alone is laughable, imagine the cowboys will have a field day with that one. How can anyone tell if a cavity has been closed off after the window has been fitted?.They can't see a timber lintel either so the idea of signing off work already previously completed by someone else is a joke. Regulation is as you say the key thing , self regulation is just a way of cutting costs for the councils until recently where they are using the Council schemes as a cash cow. In this country we get f**k all right now. Monthly digital self assessment comes in for many of us one man bands in April if VAT registered and that will be a c*ck up.Think everyone else who is self employed it starts around 2023-4 :roll:


Regarding NECIEC , I understand what you are saying but if they do dodgy work they can be heavily fined for unsafe work or worse still jailed ,allbeit highly unlikely unless there is a death involved.
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Re: Becoming fensa registered

Post by Meccarroll »

The FENSA (Fenestration Self-Assessment Scheme) first came into place in 2002, it meant newly fitted or replacement windows/doors had to be certified by a competent person and it was set set up by the Glass and Glazing Federation.

Prior to this we did not have to certify installations at all, so could just make a set of windows, install them and that was that.

As has been said above you can either obtain a certificate of compliance from a FENSA registered installer or from a Building Control body which can be from either your Local Authority or privately run Approved Inspector.

From what I remember complying with the U value regulation was fairly easy at first because you only needed to use a glass with a known transmittance value but then the big boys in manufacturing decided to make things difficult for the small guys by persuading the governments to introduce an overly complicated set of calculations taking into account all of the components of a window, the way they were aligned together and the different material types used in the construction of a window. It all got so complicated that a lot of small time manufacturers gave up! Big Big win for the big boys!

Our government has been going down the self certificate route for a long time now and is slowly getting rid of Local Government involvement (Your Local Building Control).

It's all got out of hand nowadays because a lot of self certified installations put in under FENSA would never pass an upright knowledgable Approved Inspector or your Local Authority Building Control Team. The FENSA Insurance backed guarantee is a joke, my friend showed me one which he used to issue and it was not really worth a whole lot.

The problem is the FENSA scheme because it is too open to abuse because it is not properly regulated. I saw one Installer put a door frame so far towards the outside brickwork face so that the outer leaf was on inside. He had gone past the cavity meaning that there was a cold bridge forming along the door frame and outer brickwork.

Sorry but I don't think FENSA registration and certification means a lot but I would say Jason is likely to do a first class job either with or without it. I think Jason is just trying to save a few pounds and keep his customers happy.
Leveller2911
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Re: Becoming fensa registered

Post by Leveller2911 »

Just to clarify , I'm in no way having a dig at Jason and I'm glad he has started the thread as it gives us all a chance to air our opinions. If I hadn't witness so many times companies/sole traders having broken the very rules which are supposed to install confidence I might have even gone down the same route. It may be in the next few years they make it compulsory to be a member but I hope not. Not unless they tighten right up on the abuse of the system and the only way to do that is to emply far more inspectors who tuen up when they choose rather than when is convenient. It can be done so log in and tell them when and where you would be installing and they may turn up to check. We as a species are not honest enough to be allowed to mark our own homework. If we are then I would have got "Distinctions" across the board on my apprenticeship.. :lol:
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Re: Becoming fensa registered

Post by jfc »

woodsmith wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:58 am

One thing that surprised me though is I’ve just been looking on the FENSA website and I hadn’t realised Jason can now certify third party windows even after they have been fitted.
Not sure i can , do you have a link to that ?
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Re: Becoming fensa registered

Post by Meccarroll »

jfc wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:51 pm
woodsmith wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:58 am

One thing that surprised me though is I’ve just been looking on the FENSA website and I hadn’t realised Jason can now certify third party windows even after they have been fitted.
Not sure i can , do you have a link to that ?
You will be able to Jason, as you will be registered under the scheme as a competent person.
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Re: Becoming fensa registered

Post by Meccarroll »

FENSA Registration is not necessary for the supply of windows and doors.

You can make and supply windows and doors without the need to be certified (It has been said before).

FENSA Certificates apply when installing REPLACEMENT windows and doors!

FENSA Certification is not necessary for NEW BUILDS or EXTENSION WORKS as these will be covered by Building Control/Approved Inspector.

I recently worked on a NEW OFFICE BUILDING were all the windows and doors were supplied by a joinery company, they were then part of the NEW BUILD and passed off as part of the general inspection process by an Approved Building Inspector.

I am now going to work on an extension to a house and the windows and doors will then be passed off by the Approved Inspector/Local Building Control. FENSA will have no part to play in the process.
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Re: Becoming fensa registered

Post by jfc »

Meccarroll wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 6:21 pm
jfc wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:51 pm
woodsmith wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:58 am

One thing that surprised me though is I’ve just been looking on the FENSA website and I hadn’t realised Jason can now certify third party windows even after they have been fitted.
Not sure i can , do you have a link to that ?
You will be able to Jason, as you will be registered under the scheme as a competent person.
I dont think i will and i wont be doing . I'm registered as only myself fitting with no staff or sub contractors . When i first became registered i asked if i could add work i fitted last year and was told i couldn't .
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Re: Becoming fensa registered

Post by Meccarroll »

There are several schemes at the moment listed on the Government web page that you can join for self certification (windows and doors etc).

It's worth checking out what each has to offer.

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woodsmith
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Re: Becoming fensa registered

Post by woodsmith »

jfc wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:51 pm
woodsmith wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:58 am

One thing that surprised me though is I’ve just been looking on the FENSA website and I hadn’t realised Jason can now certify third party windows even after they have been fitted.
Not sure i can , do you have a link to that ?
This is off the FENSA website.

More information

You can't self-certify your own work unless you are a registered installer, so DIY FENSA certificates are not something you can find. But it's simple to find an approved installer near you who can self-certify the project once complete. Working with a window installer who is not FENSA registered could cause you to waste a lot of extra time and money now and when it comes to selling your home.

If you want more information our website has lots of information on FENSA and what it all means to you as a homeowner. We also provide you with a search facility to find an installer in your area, advice and a guide on spotting cowboys.
Keith
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Re: Becoming fensa registered

Post by Meccarroll »

woodsmith wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 8:45 am
jfc wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:51 pm
woodsmith wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:58 am

One thing that surprised me though is I’ve just been looking on the FENSA website and I hadn’t realised Jason can now certify third party windows even after they have been fitted.
Not sure i can , do you have a link to that ?
This is off the FENSA website.

More information

You can't self-certify your own work unless you are a registered installer, so DIY FENSA certificates are not something you can find. But it's simple to find an approved installer near you who can self-certify the project once complete. Working with a window installer who is not FENSA registered could cause you to waste a lot of extra time and money now and when it comes to selling your home.

If you want more information our website has lots of information on FENSA and what it all means to you as a homeowner. We also provide you with a search facility to find an installer in your area, advice and a guide on spotting cowboys.
I think the above has just been poorly written. I would take that to mean "Use a FENSA registered installer who can do the necessary paperwork so your installation can be certified on completion".

There are about six other organisations that can register you as a competent person so that you can do the paperwork to certify you own work. You don't need to be a FENSA registered installer at all. You only need an installer registered under an approved scheme or use Building Control or an Approved Inspector.

We could do with more info on the FENSA paperwork side from Jason???
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Re: Becoming fensa registered

Post by woodsmith »

I see what you mean, it’s very misleading the way it’s written.
Keith
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Re: Becoming fensa registered

Post by jfc »

Update on this as i have done a few jobs now and have just got this years fees through .
Submitting a job is very easy and takes a couple of minutes . You just click on your Fensa portal and submit the details . This costs £2.28 . Depending on the size of the job the guarantee cost is about £30 . It varies obviously but ive submitted jobs worth 2 k - 20 k and its always about £30 ish
Costs for the year to be a member of both Fensa and what ever insurance company you pick for your guarantee is £372.00
Ive been given a fuel card that costs me £6 per year . This saves £3-4 on £30 worth of fuel . Not a lot but it adds up .
You have to have two inspections a year . So you submit a job for fitting when the inspector is in your area and he turns up to watch you .
Thats about it .
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Re: Becoming fensa registered

Post by Meccarroll »

Thank you for this Jason, I was hoping you would supply more info and can see you also needed some more input before you could do so. Very nice to receive your update.
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