fixing a woodworking vice

General wood working tips, tricks and ideas. Anything that doesn't belong elsewhere can be discussed here.
engineerone
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fixing a woodworking vice

Postby engineerone » Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:39 am

i have been looking for a "proper" woodworking vice for some time, having finally found that the zyliss is not right for everything.
since at the moment car boots are not a sensible option, i have been looking quite extensively the 9inch dakota quick release that rutlands are selling. it was attractive at the discounted price but this week i got a special offer, so finally bought one :?

it having arrived this morning, i have to figure out the best way to mount it. yeh i know with bolts and under the bench, but :lol:

my work bench top is 40mm thick, but the space from the top of the jaws to the mounting bracket is about 50mm, so obviously, i need a mounting plate. is mdf strong enough in compression for this?? but more importantly should the top of the jaws be flush with the bench top?? this vice allows wooden jaws to be mounted, and also has a sliding stop in the outer jaw, so!!!

the other question is since it weighs 14kgs, i assume the mounting bolts should be through the bench, and if so then the top of the bolts should be in a counter bored hole, but do you fill the holes, or put a cover over them??

now i have one, maybe i'll understand why they seem so important to some people, and not to others.

paul ;)

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby paulchapman » Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:52 am

1. MDF is OK for the packing - it will compress when you do up the bolts.

2. Jaws should fit below the bench top and the wooden facings should be flush with the top - fit them oversize then plane flush after fitting the vice.

3. No need to fill the counterbored fixing holes

Like this

Image

And this

Image

Cheers ;)

Paul

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby engineerone » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:07 am

thanks paul, very useful. why did you put such a small :? vice on the end, i see in the distance you have another vice, are they both the same size and capacity, if so why???

wish my bench was so tidy :lol:
paul ;)

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby paulchapman » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:15 am

engineerone wrote: why did you put such a small :? vice on the end


It's not small - both Record 52D. Standard size woodworking vices. Stop analysing and get on with it :lol:

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby engineerone » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:25 am

:?

paul ;)

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby mrgrimsdale » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:25 am

engineerone wrote:...... i assume the mounting bolts should be through the bench, and if so then the top of the bolts should be in a counter bored hole, but do you fill the holes, or put a cover over them?? .....
coach screws, not bolts

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby paulchapman » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:29 am

mrgrimsdale wrote:coach screws, not bolts


I would always use bolts - tried both ways and bolts are better IMHO. The ones in the pictures are actually fitted with threaded rod and a washer and nut on each end but that's because that's what I had at the time.

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby engineerone » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:39 am

given the quality of so many fixings these days, i too would rather use bolts or threaded rod rather than coach screws :?
anyway i was taught when i did my coachbuilding course a looooooooooooong time ago, they were actually coach bolts, not screws. mainly because they had fixings at each end.

paul ;)

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby jfc » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:41 am

Both mine are coach bolt screwed on :D

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby paulchapman » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:45 am

jfc wrote:Both mine are coach bolt screwed on :D


And welted in with a hammer no doubt :lol:

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby mrgrimsdale » Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:00 pm

engineerone wrote:given the quality of so many fixings these days, i too would rather use bolts or threaded rod rather than coach screws :?
anyway i was taught when i did my coachbuilding course a looooooooooooong time ago, they were actually coach bolts, not screws. mainly because they had fixings at each end.

paul ;)
Bolts are bolts, coach screws are screws:

Image

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jfc
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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby jfc » Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:05 pm

Thats one of those things used to fix vices to the work bench isnt it :D

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby paulchapman » Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:10 pm

:lol: :lol:

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby jake » Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:19 pm

If you are going to fix it with coach bolts:

Image

You need a fuck-off big hammer unless you drill first like a wuss!

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby modernist » Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:52 pm

If I were you Paul I'd use ordinary nuts and bolts and plug the counterbores on top as that is exactly where you are going to ding some freshly sharpened edge one day.
Cheers

Brian


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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby engineerone » Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:53 pm

well i will probably use "proper nuts and bolts" as suggested by brian, but i did check out the other stuff ie coach bolts and coach screws. and in my research i believe i was right.

jacob what you call coach screws are actually more correctly called lagging bolts or screws, they were used initially i think on early steam engines where the boilers were lagged with wood, and the fixings went through metal and wood. coach bolts were designed to hold in wood, and yet hold wood and metal together. rarely in my study of 20th century coach built vehicles of the old school was the wood joined in any other way than using proper woodwork joints. however where metal items were attached, then coach bolts were used.

paul ;)

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby jfc » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:30 pm

Just fit the f**king vice to your bench will you :roll:

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby engineerone » Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:35 am

i only got the bloody thing yesterday morning, and so have to find the right bolts(screws :lol: ) since unlike you i do not carry them in my stock of cr*p lying around :lol: :twisted:

tomorrow i will clean all the grease off, cut out the mounting plate, and chock it up whilst i fix it. bloody hell 14 kg is heavy when you are using one hand to hold the bloody thing up against the underside of your bench, and then trying to screw the nuts and bolts together :lol: then i will spray with ptfe grease, and make some wooden jaws. and hope the bench doesn't tip toward the vice end every time i clean up the other end :roll:

paul ;)

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby mrgrimsdale » Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:51 am

engineerone wrote:well i will probably use "proper nuts and bolts" as suggested by brian, but i did check out the other stuff ie coach bolts and coach screws. and in my research i believe i was right.

jacob what you call coach screws are actually more correctly called lagging bolts or screws, they were used initially i think on early steam engines where the boilers were lagged with wood, and the fixings went through metal and wood. coach bolts were designed to hold in wood, and yet hold wood and metal together. rarely in my study of 20th century coach built vehicles of the old school was the wood joined in any other way than using proper woodwork joints. however where metal items were attached, then coach bolts were used.

paul ;)
They are called 'coach screws'. You are nearly right otherwise. They are used to join metal to wood; screws for one plate, bolts when there is a plate on both sides. Never for joining wood to wood. Oddly enough in the beginnings metal also was joined with woodwork joints; dovetails etc.

I agree with Jason; just fit the f**king vice to your bench will you :lol: :lol:

bloody hell 14 kg is heavy when you are using one hand to hold the bloody thing up against the underside of your bench, and then trying to screw the nuts and bolts together
Turn the bench upside down on a couple of saw stools. If you try to work from underneath the bench you might drop the vice on your head. Hmm, let me guess - this isn't the first time you have tried this? Are you a Laurel & Hardy fan or what? Do wear your bowler. :lol: :lol: :lol:
PS and make sure you put it in the right place; when you turn it upside down either front/back or left/right are reversed, but never both! There's a conundrum for you! :lol:
nb to get both you'd have to turn it inside out and upside down but don't attempt this on your own.

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby sainty » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:02 am

mrgrimsdale wrote:Turn the bench upside down on a couple of saw stools. If you try to work from underneath the bench you might drop the vice on your head. Are you a Laurel & Hardy fan or what? :lol: :lol: :lol:



Whislt I apprecaite the comedy value of watching someone trying to turn a bench upside down onto a couple of stools you might want to try this first - clamp a piece of timber/panel in the vice and then clamp that to your bench so that it's in the right place, then fix with coach screws from below.

Personally, I want to hear the story of what happens when you drop the vice on your head - not enough comendy woodworking moments around here at the moment, so feel free to ignore my advice :evil: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby paulchapman » Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:47 am

Or you could clamp a long piece of wood vertically in the vice, so that it reaches the floor and holds the vice at the correct height.

Cheers ;)

Paul

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby modernist » Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:48 pm

paulchapman wrote:Or you could clamp a long piece of wood vertically in the vice, so that it reaches the floor and holds the vice at the correct height.

Cheers ;)

Paul


You're just too sensible Paul - but clever :lol:
Cheers

Brian


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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby mrgrimsdale » Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:15 pm

Believe me chaps, having done this a number of times I can tell you it's much easier upside down (or even just on it's side) with the back and front plates separated (that takes off half the weight at least). Even if it's a great heavy bench needing 2 men to shift it.
Why eff about?

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby engineerone » Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:57 pm

having got my bolts, not coach bolts :roll: i am drilling the pilots and will provide some photos a little later.

however, paul what have you used for the false jaws, and how do you fix them??

i will use a simple method for one handed use to affix, and actually clamp it. :twisted:

paul ;)

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby paulchapman » Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:18 pm

engineerone wrote: paul what have you used for the false jaws, and how do you fix them??



It was some wood from an old shelf - probably something like Sapele.

If the holes for fixing the wooden vice facings are not threaded (they used to be on older Records and were supplied with machine screws, but most are not these days) don't be tempted to fix them with wood screws. Vice jaws toe-in so that the top meets first when you close it up. If you fix the facings with wood screws, the leverage from the toe-in will eventually cause them to come loose. Far better to fix them with countersunk machine screws, washers and nuts. This means, of course, that the rear jaw will have two nuts sticking out at the back which will prevent you fitting the vice close up to the bench front. Simply drill two shallow holes in the bench front for these nuts to fit in so that the rear jaw can fit up close to the bench.

If you look at the second picture I posted above, you will see the two nuts and washers where I fitted the front facing. The vice in the first picture was bought in 1970 and came with threaded holes and screws.

Make the facings slightly too high then, when it's all fitted, plane them to the correct height by resting the plane (preferably a long one) on the bench and planing towards the front.

Hope that's clear :lol:

Cheers ;)

Paul

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby jfc » Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:24 pm

paul what have you used for the false jaws, and how do you fix them??



Coach bolts :lol:

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby paulchapman » Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:31 pm

:lol:

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby engineerone » Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:13 pm

and there was me thinking it was super glue :lol:

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby Andys Woodshed » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:36 pm

This has got to be a record :roll:

27 posts on how to fix a vice using 4 bolts and 2 false wooden jaws using 4 wood screws :lol:

Was it not supplied with step by step fitting instructions :)

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby mrgrimsdale » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:40 pm

andy wrote:This has got to be a record :roll:

27 posts on how to fix a vice using 4 bolts and 2 false wooden jaws using 4 wood screws :lol:

Was it not supplied with step by step fitting instructions :)
No it's a Dakota. When he finds the instructions he'll have to start again :roll: I bet they are still in the box.

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby jfc » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:46 pm

No it's a Dakota


:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby DavidO » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:54 pm

andy wrote:27 posts on how to fix a vice using 4 bolts and 2 false wooden jaws using 4 wood screws :lol:


You obviously weren't paying attention Andy, you can't use wood screws to hold on the false jaws because the vices design will inevitably lead to the screws working loose. See, aren't you glad this thread exists now? :roll:

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby mrgrimsdale » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:08 pm

engineerone wrote:....
now i have one, maybe i'll understand why they seem so important to some people, and not to others.

paul ;)
Surely essential for all bench joinery? What is a zyliss BTW? Some sort of alloy DIY gadget with plastic handles I'll be bound :roll:

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby tommo » Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:34 pm

http://www.zyliss.com/

As far as I know bolts have a shank screws don't not that it matters because some snotty oik
usually has a different name for them.

Tom

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby mrgrimsdale » Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:09 pm

So it's a salad spinner? Wos E1 been doing with it fer f**ks sake? :shock:
Something to do with shower curtain hygiene?

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby Andys Woodshed » Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:14 pm

davyowen wrote:
andy wrote:27 posts on how to fix a vice using 4 bolts and 2 false wooden jaws using 4 wood screws :lol:


You obviously weren't paying attention Andy, you can't use wood screws to hold on the false jaws because the vices design will inevitably lead to the screws working loose. See, aren't you glad this thread exists now? :roll:


Not happened in my life time :roll:

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby engineerone » Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:39 pm

oh silly me, all my experience with fixed vices on benches has been with metal working ones where all you do is plonk them in the right place and drill for the two or four bolts, and all you need to worry about is the fact that the bloody heavy metal vice holds itself in place :twisted:

have fitted said vice will make the false jaws and see how it goes.
i clamped it in place before fixing, much easier for me after i had lifted it :roll:

paul ;)

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby modernist » Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:41 pm

I'd go with that.

25mm MDF for the false jaws with woodscrews into the bench. At least then you don't have to take the vice off (and we all know what a pain that is) to change the jaws.

Mine has lasted 12 years so far and looks fairly solid.
Cheers

Brian


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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby paulchapman » Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:52 pm

modernist wrote: woodscrews into the bench. At least then you don't have to take the vice off (and we all know what a pain that is) to change the jaws.



That's what was good about the older Record vices - they had threaded holes for fitting the vice facings, so you could get a really good fixing and be able to change the jaws at some time in the future without removing the vice. On a vice without threaded holes you could always tap a thread, but I doubt that many would bother.

Cheers ;)

Paul

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Re: fixing a woodworking vice

Postby modernist » Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:03 am

It wasn't that easy though Paul. My last one needed c/sunk set screws with as BSF thread I think. Not available from your average B & Q
Cheers

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