Past project, tangent handrail

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Oldboy22
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Past project, tangent handrail

Post by Oldboy22 » Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:21 am

Hi retired now but I’d like share some photos of a previous job as tangent handrail and staircases are in focus at the moment. This staircase and handrail are not perfect in anyway. I was called on to make this as I had done a lot of work for the client. I’ve never made a staircase or handrail like it before or after. I learnt a lot doing it all made on site (no workshop).
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9A6340EE-D83A-4588-A03A-1548D723CBFA.jpeg
56FC7EA9-B969-4668-950F-1CB463750D0E.jpeg
C301178C-CE21-4449-85D6-2536158C32C8.jpeg
9D2010CA-BF15-4E4E-84E6-E3278122F6C4.jpeg
90AECF6A-1A1C-482E-B695-C5EEC5929638.jpeg

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Re: Past project, tangent handrail

Post by Oldboy22 » Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:47 am

A couple more
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073A8DE3-106B-4E4E-BCC2-B04CE6A7BB89.jpeg
8C695B71-F344-4C88-A3F0-276427A6B68D.jpeg

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Re: Past project

Post by MJ80 » Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:55 am

That's really nice

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Re: Past project

Post by Meccarroll » Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:06 pm

Well you certainly passed with flying colours, Great job.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:53 am

A couple of pictures showing practice pieces of tangent handrails, made just for fun to prove my drawings were correct. not related to the staircase above.
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4C77CEBD-C67B-4C16-B6A3-6E36F2913B83.jpeg
9B708599-26FE-4495-A05E-4DC4FCA24E35.jpeg
E88D0925-4763-4C4E-8FD2-1A1ACBF71A03.jpeg
6DA7D433-E750-4AA1-A97A-A5E42F56D8F6.jpeg

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:35 pm

Found some more sorry they are not in order.
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072ECFB8-7272-4616-AC6F-9C11DBD32709.jpeg
3DDFFBC5-F857-4058-B072-E2F0DBE291A4.jpeg
B763A6F9-9BA0-42B6-AB32-8468163020B0.jpeg

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:27 am

32B66302-5433-488C-9CB5-E67A8C669F86.jpeg
E2F64BC1-841C-4A57-953E-9A4FF620A529.jpeg

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:51 pm

The drawings above are a way of solving two equal pitched handrails that are at different height to each other but need to come together on a quarter turn. Not complete but very nearly all the geometry should be easy enough to follow.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:09 pm

After a lot of head scratching, I'm struggling trying to figure it out. I'd really appreciate if you could critique my understanding so far.
tangent diff height edited.png

The critical point is shown by the arrow? Yes? You strike two arcs centred at A and B. A arc radius is the length of the inclined tangent. B arc radius is the length of the tangent.

From that intersection of the two arcs, you strike a line back to A. This is your ‘new’ pitch line.

You then extend that down in the 7 o’clock direction to intersect the second inclined tangent of the lower hand rail at C ?

I see you mention an easing. Is this a separate piece of timber added to one end of the wreath ?

If so, how do you decide it’s curve…ie why it terminates at D on the second inclined tangent ? And not further down or above ?

What’s the relevance of the two 90 degree lines ?

I don’t see the bevel anywhere ?

The centreline of the facemould is in green ?

TIA
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:04 pm

Hi
Yes the critical point is shown by the arrow.
A to the arrow is the length of the inclined tangent.
B the length of the tangent in PLAN view.
The level tangent and inclined tangent must meet at that point along the horizontal line.

The angle of that line is determined by the difference in height between the two pitches, and how much height you want the easing to take up. It must still meet at the junction of the two inclined tangents at A( the reason you have this problem is because the upper flight is to far onto the landing, if you could slide the top flight towards the trimming you could bring them so you could have them at the same height) but this can’t be done hence the problem.

From the arrow to point D is the start and end of the easing, this can be what you want, the tangents of the easing need to be at 90 deg in both directions so they join to the wreath and lower handrail also cut at 90 deg cut in both directions.

The easing can be incorporated into the wreath but I don’t think you should try this it not beginning stuff, as is any of it. I have drawn it as a separate piece. I haven’t drawn it but you should include about 50mm on the end of the easing and the wreath that joins a straight handrail, so that your joining straight to straight. ( hope that makes sense.

The relevance of the two 90 deg lines is answered two paragraphs up.

The curve of the easing is determined by drawing two lines at 90 deg to the tangents at the joints , they should intersect that is the radius point.

Very important you pay attention to the ordinate direction it won’t or shouldn’t be corner to corner of the square encompassing the plan radius ( the line with the small circle on it).

The easing terminates at D because it reaches the lower pitched handrail which is tangential to the curve of the easing.

This is very precise work, everything joins at 90 deg both ways

The centre line of the facemould is in green but terminate where it joins the inclined tangents and is a perfect ellipse. Don’t forget add 50mm to the wreath at the straight handrail end.

The lower bevel is developed the same way as the “this is carpentry post” the upper bevel is different, I thought you could try to work that out for yourself, I will help but I hope you don’t mind me saying this is a very steep learning curve. And a bit of research might be fun?.

Hope this is clear.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:09 pm

Hi
Yes, level and inclined tangents in blue.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:01 pm

Shock and awe, mate. Shock and awe. Your understanding of all of this is nothing short of amazing and I salute you. All of your points are well-made.

As you say...a vertical learning curve. Thank you, thank you for your support.
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:19 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:01 pm
Shock and awe, mate. Shock and awe. Your understanding of all of this is nothing short of amazing and I salute you. All of your points are well-made.

As you say...a vertical learning curve. Thank you, thank you for your support.
Thanks for you comments, and thanks to MJ80 and Meccarroll for there kind comments, I find the more I learn and understand, the more I need to learn. It is head scratching but in a good way.

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Re: Past project

Post by MJ80 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:08 pm

I feel like having a go for a test.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:48 pm

MJ80 wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:08 pm
I feel like having a go for a test.
Why not it’s very absorbing.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:55 pm

Oldboy22 wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:04 pm
Hi

The lower bevel is developed the same way as the “this is carpentry post” the upper bevel is different, I thought you could try to work that out for yourself, I will help but I hope you don’t mind me saying this is a very steep learning curve.

Hope this is clear.
Whoops I made a boo boo, in this case the upper bevel is developed the same way as the “this is carpentry post” I’ve double checked two ways so confident now, as far as I can see everything else is correct.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:19 pm

Here's a thought...is there any chance we could have a Zoom session (I can set that all up ) and watch how you create the drawing you've posted above ?

Or we could use SketchUp via Zoom, if you're not familiar with SketchUp then I'd be your 'compass and protractor' and you'd guide me through it. Anyone interested could watch and contribute.
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:39 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:19 pm
Here's a thought...is there any chance we could have a Zoom session (I can set that all up ) and watch how you create the drawing you've posted above ?

Or we could use SketchUp via Zoom, if you're not familiar with SketchUp then I'd be your 'compass and protractor' and you'd guide me through it. Anyone interested could watch and contribute.
Sorry I can’t do that!, I’m very happy to help but only via the forum.

Let me know what part your having difficulty with and I’ll draw just that stage.

This is very flattering but I’m not an expert or a teacher, just an old site carpenter who’s read a few books.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:29 pm

Oldboy22 wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:04 pm
Hi
Yes the critical point is shown by the arrow.
A to the arrow is the length of the inclined tangent.
B the length of the tangent in PLAN view.
The level tangent and inclined tangent must meet at that point along the horizontal line.
So..the extra constructs (A to the arrow etc) are there purely to create the design details for the easing ?

By 'level' tangent, do you mean the line B to the arrow ?

Here's a photo from my set-up. I extended the line of the two centre-lines for the straight part of the handrail on the upper flight and lower flight and as you can see they don't meet due to the height difference which in my case is 115mm. So I'd plug that into my drawing to create the line you've shown dotted (C > D). I've noted on your drawing where I think the 115mm would be used.

Image
new drawing annotated.png
The redlines are created after this new tangent is drawn..yes ? But I'm not sure what they are used for.
Oldboy22 wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:04 pm
The angle of that line is determined by the difference in height between the two pitches, and how much height you want the easing to take up. It must still meet at the junction of the two inclined tangents at A( the reason you have this problem is because the upper flight is to far onto the landing, if you could slide the top flight towards the trimming you could bring them so you could have them at the same height) but this can’t be done hence the problem.
Understand the first sentence but have a mental block understanding the next one. TBH I have a block trying to understand why there is the height difference giving me this problem when the treads on the upper flight, quarter-turn platform, lower flight have all the same rise.
Oldboy22 wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:04 pm
From the arrow to point D is the start and end of the easing, this can be what you want, the tangents of the easing need to be at 90 deg in both directions so they join to the wreath and lower handrail also cut at 90 deg cut in both directions.
I think what you're saying is that all the joins need to be cross cut on a virtual mitre saw at 90 degrees ?
Oldboy22 wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:04 pm
The easing can be incorporated into the wreath but I don’t think you should try this it not beginning stuff, as is any of it. I have drawn it as a separate piece. I haven’t drawn it but you should include about 50mm on the end of the easing and the wreath that joins a straight handrail, so that your joining straight to straight. ( hope that makes sense.
Now this is where I'm struggling. We start off drawing the wreath based on the radius of our turn and end up with the length of the wreath needed to wrap around that virtual cylinder and fill the gap between the ends of the straight handrails on the two flights. But we're also adding in the length of the easing which I find hard to get my head round. How long is the easing ?
Oldboy22 wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:04 pm
The relevance of the two 90 deg lines is answered two paragraphs up.
Oldboy22 wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:04 pm
The curve of the easing is determined by drawing two lines at 90 deg to the tangents at the joints , they should intersect that is the radius point.
Pointed at by my blue arrow.
Oldboy22 wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:04 pm
Very important you pay attention to the ordinate direction it won’t or shouldn’t be corner to corner of the square encompassing the plan radius ( the line with the small circle on it).
I don't understand this - sorry. The ordinate direction ? Being a bit thick.
Oldboy22 wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:04 pm
The easing terminates at D because it reaches the lower pitched handrail which is tangential to the curve of the easing.
Understood
Oldboy22 wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:04 pm
This is very precise work, everything joins at 90 deg both ways

The centre line of the facemould is in green but terminate where it joins the inclined tangents and is a perfect ellipse. Don’t forget add 50mm to the wreath at the straight handrail end.
So the 'designed' length of the wreath is from X to Y. These are the shanks. Cut at our virtual 90 degree cross cut on a mitre saw...but we then add to the wreath 50mm straight pieces at either end ? Why ? If the wreath is made to the drawing then surely there is no need ?

Many thanks again for your help. This is one of the most frustrating concepts that I've encountered. Just when I think I've cracked it, it kind of slithers away again :D
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
Friedrich Nietzsche

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:56 pm

Hi

Okay I’ve assumed to much. If you lay a straight edge on the upper string and another on the lower string , the height difference must be between the underside the lower straight edge and the underside of the upper straight edge.?? Assuming the margin on the strings are equal?.this should be the height difference.

I’ve decided to draw it in stages so we can agree on and fully understand the first stage before going on to the next.


First stage.
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E2386704-426E-487F-A171-2FE741966DE4.jpeg
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:09 pm

Stage 1a
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:53 pm

Yup...understand the height difference..I know the arrow in my picture is confusing.

Thank you for those drawings...that helps a lot.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:24 pm

Stage 2
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:26 pm

Anyone else got a question ?

I’ll go to the next stage when you understand.....

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:28 pm

Ok so far, thanks.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:32 pm

Stage 3
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:38 pm

This is superb, thank you.
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:45 pm

Any questions?

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:52 pm

Am I right in saying that the amount of height chosen to be in the wreath and that in the easing is down to experience ?
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:59 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:52 pm
Am I right in saying that the amount of height chosen to be in the wreath and that in the easing is down to experience ?
I don’t really have to much practical experience, I’ve only ever made the one staircase that needed a tangent handrail, but it seems to me the bigger the plan radius and the more gentle the easing the smoother the transition.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:05 pm

That makes a lot of sense to me. The flow is so important.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:14 pm

Stage 4

Transferring the centre of the radius up to the ellipse base line.....

Copy or offset the ordinate line in the plan to the centre of the circle in plan, then continue vertically where it touches the base line to the extended upper inclined tangent.

Then copy or offset the other ordinate line from where the vertical line touches extended tangent line.

Where it touches the ellipse base line is the centre of the ellipse.

Do the same with the end of the circle in the plan , this will be the end of the semi-major axis of the ellipse, as show in the drawing.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:21 pm

Stage 5
You should now be able to draw the ellipse and it should just kiss the inclined tangents.
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:05 pm

Oldboy22 wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:14 pm
Stage 4
OK...I got this the wrong way round the first time I read through it. So just to clarify the sequence - for me and any others....

Transferring the centre of the radius up to the ellipse base line.....
new drawing annotated 2.png
Oldboy22 wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:14 pm
Copy or offset the ordinate line in the plan to the centre of the circle in plan,
The blue line
Oldboy22 wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:14 pm
then continue vertically where it touches the base line to the extended upper inclined tangent.
The green line
Oldboy22 wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:14 pm
Then copy or offset the other ordinate line from where the vertical line touches extended tangent line.
The red line
Oldboy22 wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:14 pm
Where it touches the ellipse base line is the centre of the ellipse.
At M
Oldboy22 wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:14 pm
Do the same with the end of the circle in the plan , this will be the end of the semi-major axis of the ellipse, as show in the drawing.
This last bit I don't follow. Could you perhaps highlight this line, please. Do you mean drawing that semi-circle pointed at by the blue arrow?
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:20 pm

Hi they must be the same angle as the ordinate or vertical between the horizontal base line and the inclined tangent, like your blue, green and red line.

I’ve highlighted in magenta the line that develops the end of the ellipse.
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:27 pm

Perfect. Thank you. The other end of the ellipse you do by eye?

Although I've now got my walnut, as I've got a slab of 200mm x 100mm softwood, I'm going to redraw this tomorrow, make the wreath and see what comes out in the wash.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:54 pm

Hi no nothing is done by eye, if you have an ellipse function on your drawing package you only need the semi-minor axis which is the radius of the circle in the plan and the semi-Mayor axis which is from the centre to the magenta line. The ellipse ends at the end of the inclined tangent lines. I don’t think your quite ready to start cutting yet where are the bevels and wreath drawings.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:57 pm

Ooops....you're right. This is brilliant though.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:25 am

Hi
Here’s a reposting of my original drawing that should show any construction lines I missed drawing the stages.
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Re: Past project

Post by Meccarroll » Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:18 am

Hi Oldboy22, just wondered which book you used for reproducing your drawings.

I know there are lots out there each with a different way of tackling the subject and some jump in showing Plates which at first sight don't seem very interesting but they actually deal specifically with a specific handrail combination.

The terminology which you used sort of indicated you were referencing a book:

"The easing can be incorporated into the wreath but I don’t think you should try this it not beginning stuff"

I don't think I have come across it as yet but it would be interesting to know what you are reading.

Morris Williams, STAIR BUILDERS GUIDE is a good read

And Robert Riddle has published a few good books too.

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