Past project, tangent handrail

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:00 pm

It has been addressed, you need start in the centre so you will have extra to take off the less twisty end, top and bottom, remember everything is about the imaginary centre line running through the block.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:08 pm

Like it says here
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:22 pm

My reasoning for dropping those vertical lines at X X are correct, I've decided.

However, drawing either a central vertical line (as per di Cristina page 132) or even a centre point on the face is not necessary providing that you use commonsense and position the top template to allow for the extra wood needed due to the twist. This is borne out by the fact that the drawings in some books don't do it this way either.

I did put a central vertical line at the first face here but realised that it offered no benefit that I could see.
Image

I didn't bother at the opposite face.
Image

After drawing the bevels, I drew the 'new' tangents at right-angles to the face
Image

then slid the top template to line up with those tangents. It also allowed me to mark up the neutral line.
Image

Image

Then I drew round that template.
Image

To get the template position on the underside, I dropped my two lines (X-X) as planned.
Image

Even if I'd centred that bevel on the face, the distance between and position of those lines remains the same.
Image

I then have to transfer my tangent lines on the bottom template to the other side of the template (for correct orientation)
Image

Image

I mark up the 'new' tangents on the block underside and slide the template into position.
Image

I draw round the template and mark up the neutral point on the underside.

Join up the two neutral points top and bottom and when you look at it, it really is slewed over and you think 'This can't possibly be right' but it is !

Image

Image
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:36 pm

I can’t really see what’s going on.

1 your block looks oversize height and width, I would thickness your block to the thickness of the maximum twisted end .

2 put your template on the top lining up with your joint lines with the template if already cut.

3 square a line down from the tangent lines on the template find the centre of this line both ends, mark a horizontal line there.

4 before moving draw around your template, take to the bandsaw and cut a bit outside this line.

5 mark your twist with a bevel going from the centre line already drawn up to the top / bottom from those points drawn, draw in your offset tangent lines both ends and sides from those points.

5a draw the handrail section on the end in line with the the twist.

6 draw around your template again in the new positions, making sure your tangent lines on the template are shifted to the new position on the blank drawn in 5. A hole a few inches from the end of your template will help make sure they are straight , the template drawn around in the new position should line up with the sections drawn on the end.

7 work the vertical surfaces as before, followed by the top and bottom.

Hope that makes sense.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:39 pm

It doesn’t look to me as if you have added 50mm or so to both ends to work in a straight bit of rail to help with joining you straight handrail to.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:45 pm

It should look a little like this.
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:59 pm

Oldboy22 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:36 pm
I can’t really see what’s going on.

1 your block looks oversize height and width, I would thickness your block to the thickness of the maximum twisted end .

2 put your template on the top lining up with your joint lines with the template if already cut.

3 square a line down from the tangent lines on the template find the centre of this line both ends, mark a horizontal line there.

4 before moving draw around your template, take to the bandsaw and cut a bit outside this line.

5 mark your twist with a bevel going from the centre line already drawn up to the top / bottom from those points drawn, draw in your offset tangent lines both ends and sides from those points.

5a draw the handrail section on the end in line with the the twist.

6 draw around your template again in the new positions, making sure your tangent lines on the template are shifted to the new position on the blank drawn in 5. A hole a few inches from the end of your template will help make sure they are straight , the template drawn around in the new position should line up with the sections drawn on the end.

7 work the vertical surfaces as before, followed by the top and bottom.

Hope that makes sense.
OK..think we're at cross-purposes here.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:07 pm

Okay I’ll let someone else answer but that’s how I would do it , it’s no good drawing your neutral point yet you have far to much waste needs removing it will all be lost.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:11 pm

Also if you think about it your neutral zone centre point won’t be correct if your not starting in the centre of both ends.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:34 pm

Oldboy22 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:07 pm
Okay I’ll let someone else answer but that’s how I would do it , it’s no good drawing your neutral point yet you have far to much waste needs removing it will all be lost.
You and I work in very different ways. For the record, that is NOT my wood It is a piece of Kingspan. I wanted to test my methodology before committing to walnut.
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:35 pm

Oldboy22 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:11 pm
Also if you think about it your neutral zone centre point won’t be correct if your not starting in the centre of both ends.
I disagree. As I said before, there are plenty of books out there that do not mark up the centre of both ends.
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:45 pm

I don’t get you, seems you got all the answers but keep asking questions I’m only trying to help, if you don’t like my answers just ignore me, it makes no difference to me.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:34 pm

As I said...we work and think in different ways.
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:36 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:34 pm
As I said...we work and think in different ways.
Yes we do your not even in the same library let alone the same page.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:50 pm

Oldboy22 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:36 pm
thatsnotafestool wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:34 pm
As I said...we work and think in different ways.
Yes we do your not even in the same library let alone the same page.
No need to be so patronising.
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
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Re: Past project

Post by Meccarroll » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:43 pm

oldboy22,

I have a very simple way of obtaining the bevels for wreathes but I would like another as a double check I have read about other ways of obtaining the bevels but they are complicated so I have to admit I am not found of them. Your method looks quite like it may be easy and quick, is there any possibility you could run it through?

Mark

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:38 am

Meccarroll wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:43 pm
oldboy22,

I have a very simple way of obtaining the bevels for wreathes but I would like another as a double check I have read about other ways of obtaining the bevels but they are complicated so I have to admit I am not found of them. Your method looks quite like it may be easy and quick, is there any possibility you could run it through?

Mark
Pleasure

Apart from Mowatt I know this method for the lower bevel.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:41 am

Meccarroll wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:43 pm
oldboy22,

I have a very simple way of obtaining the bevels for wreathes but I would like another as a double check I have read about other ways of obtaining the bevels but they are complicated so I have to admit I am not found of them. Your method looks quite like it may be easy and quick, is there any possibility you could run it through?

Mark

And this method for the lower bevel.
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:10 am

Oldboy, if you wanted to get more coverage and input to this thread, perhaps you might like to think about changing the title to Tangent Hand-railing? That way anyone out there on the wider web might get here as a result of a Google search ?

Not sure on the best spelling of handrailing or hand-railing TBH to get most interest.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:16 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:10 am
Oldboy, if you wanted to get more coverage and input to this thread, perhaps you might like to think about changing the title to Tangent Hand-railing? That way anyone out there on the wider web might get here as a result of a Google search ?

Not sure on the best spelling of handrailing or hand-railing TBH to get most interest.
I did a search on google the other day for tangent handrailing and pictures and drawings from this post were in abundance, really surprised me.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:33 am

Oldboy22 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:16 am
thatsnotafestool wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:10 am
Oldboy, if you wanted to get more coverage and input to this thread, perhaps you might like to think about changing the title to Tangent Hand-railing? That way anyone out there on the wider web might get here as a result of a Google search ?

Not sure on the best spelling of handrailing or hand-railing TBH to get most interest.
I did a search on google the other day for tangent handrailing and pictures and drawings from this post were in abundance, really surprised me.
So did I and my thread comes up but not yours which is a pity. In case you weren't aware how to change your thread title, just go to your first post and choose Edit. That will let you change your title if you wanted to.
The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:01 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:33 am
Oldboy22 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:16 am
thatsnotafestool wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:10 am
Oldboy, if you wanted to get more coverage and input to this thread, perhaps you might like to think about changing the title to Tangent Hand-railing? That way anyone out there on the wider web might get here as a result of a Google search ?

Not sure on the best spelling of handrailing or hand-railing TBH to get most interest.
I did a search on google the other day for tangent handrailing and pictures and drawings from this post were in abundance, really surprised me.
So did I and my thread comes up but not yours which is a pity. In case you weren't aware how to change your thread title, just go to your first post and choose Edit. That will let you change your title if you wanted to.
I’m not really interested in the attention that might generate.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:12 am

Fair enough. Just that this is a very quiet forum and I'd got the impression that you wanted more involvement.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:21 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:12 am
Fair enough. Just that this is a very quiet forum and I'd got the impression that you wanted more involvement.
I do from members on the forum but my knowledge on this subject is tiny in comparison to some out there, I only joined to help you with your staircase and pick up a few tips and give me something to do. I don’t want to make a fool of myself pretending I’m some kind of Guru, when I’m clearly not.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:38 am

Oldboy22 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:16 am
thatsnotafestool wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:10 am
Oldboy, if you wanted to get more coverage and input to this thread, perhaps you might like to think about changing the title to Tangent Hand-railing? That way anyone out there on the wider web might get here as a result of a Google search ?

Not sure on the best spelling of handrailing or hand-railing TBH to get most interest.
I did a search on google the other day for tangent handrailing and pictures and drawings from this post were in abundance, really surprised me.
No it was a search for handrail books by Robert riddle.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:58 am

At the risk of opening up old sores, assuming one is starting with a large chunk of wood - as I am - then is there any difference as far as the wreath is concerned by placing the face mould in either of these two positions ? Ignore amount of wood to be removed etc. and/or the exact positioning. I'm interested in the basic concept. My view is that it makes no difference to the wreath if either position is used.

See these two photos

Image

Image

So if one agrees that it makes no difference then what I have just done is shift the position of the nominal vertical 'centre' line. Which supports my argument that the central line is irrelevant in situations such as this.

I would, however, agree that where the amount of twist is different for each bevel (as in my case) that the using the horizontal centre line on the bevel end of less twist is a good idea.

But the vertical? No.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:12 pm

Your baffling me with stuff that doesn’t matter .

What does matter is you appear to have the template sets or a left handed staircase, not a right.
Unless you know different.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:39 pm

You don’t appear to have added extra to the length for a straight section on your template , it will make a difference when you shift your templates if you allow for it on the blank but not the template .

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:40 pm

The stuff does matter. You keep telling me that I need to use centre-lines but I am saying that you don't.

The templates are printed and created from the drawings that you approved. Also the same templates were used to create the softwood sample that is pretty much there ..or as good as.

I've added extra on the block.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:45 pm

The way that template is laying on the blank is perfect for the underside the end that is widest is the top to accommodate the bigger twist bevel at the top

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:47 pm

Agreed. It was all explained in that long post I submitted earlier in the thread.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:49 pm

The template is reversible but the bevels have to be applied the correct end and on the top face

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:59 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:40 pm

I've added extra on the block.
I can’t see it, it should be a parallel section not a continuation of the ellipse.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:04 pm

You won't see it on the template. As I said, added to the block.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:14 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:04 pm
You won't see it on the template. As I said, added to the block.
Ok well make sure your template is in the correct position (ie back from the end of the block)
By the amount you added when you shift the tangents

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:23 pm

On the centre line I know you don’t see it my way but if you imagine the red lines are central through the block , and the blue lines change direction to allow for one end not being central in the block you won’t have a straight continuous line falling like on my paper model, it would have a kick in it albeit only small.

I don’t really think you should concern yourself with this, there are bigger problems to overcome.

This is my opinion.
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:56 pm

We are in agreement ! As I said in my OP regarding this..it's the horizontal centre line that is important when one end is not rotated so much ie there is space top and bottom.
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Re: Past project

Post by Meccarroll » Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:12 pm

Oldboy22 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:38 am
Meccarroll wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:43 pm
oldboy22,

I have a very simple way of obtaining the bevels for wreathes but I would like another as a double check I have read about other ways of obtaining the bevels but they are complicated so I have to admit I am not found of them. Your method looks quite like it may be easy and quick, is there any possibility you could run it through?

Mark
Pleasure

Apart from Mowatt I know this method for the lower bevel.
Cheers for that.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:50 pm

Thatsnotafestool

Rereading one of your comments what you posted with the kingsman

When you draw around your template when you have shifted it over to the twist tangent line , you draw as much as you can, you don’t stop at minor axis or neutral point, that come into play later as a check that your top and bottom are equal from that point.and should just be visible when your sides are shaped , but only a guide a nice even falling line is what is required.

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Re: Past project

Post by Meccarroll » Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:56 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:22 pm
My reasoning for dropping those vertical lines at X X are correct, I've decided.

However, drawing either a central vertical line (as per di Cristina page 132) or even a centre point on the face is not necessary providing that you use commonsense and position the top template to allow for the extra wood needed due to the twist. This is borne out by the fact that the drawings in some books don't do it this way either.

I did put a central vertical line at the first face here but realised that it offered no benefit that I could see.
Image

I didn't bother at the opposite face.
Image

After drawing the bevels, I drew the 'new' tangents at right-angles to the face
Image

then slid the top template to line up with those tangents. It also allowed me to mark up the neutral line.
Image

Image

Then I drew round that template.
Image

To get the template position on the underside, I dropped my two lines (X-X) as planned.
Image

Even if I'd centred that bevel on the face, the distance between and position of those lines remains the same.
Image

I then have to transfer my tangent lines on the bottom template to the other side of the template (for correct orientation)
Image

Image

I mark up the 'new' tangents on the block underside and slide the template into position.
Image

I draw round the template and mark up the neutral point on the underside.

Join up the two neutral points top and bottom and when you look at it, it really is slewed over and you think 'This can't possibly be right' but it is !

Image

Image
Drop this gobboldygook and follow the correct methods Rodger they are tried, tested and work for good reason.

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