Past project, tangent handrail

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thatsnotafestool
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:47 pm

Meccarroll wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:25 pm
thatsnotafestool wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:50 am
Meccarroll wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:56 pm


That's understandable Rodger, I expect you need a break for a couple of days to digest all the drawings.

I did a drawing on A4 paper using the dimensions you gave in another thread and came up with a vertical distance of 230mm.

I used the riser positions based on your dimensions in the other thread and a going of 270mm. This gave me 230mm diff vertically.

I did not use a drawing package, CAD or drawing tools, just a rule and square as it was a quick guide for me to see how or even if it may differ from your previous height measurements and it did.

I'm off next week and may find the time to have a bash to see what I can come up with, so any chance you could arm me with the following:

1. Distance from the centre line of the bottom string to the riser facing the block plane in your pictures.

2. The distance from the centre line of the top string to the face of the last riser on the bottom flight. I'd just use a sliding square from the face of the last tread to the centre line of the top string then deduct the nosing from the measurement to obtain the correct dimension.

3. Re check that the going (riser face to riser face) is 270mm as previously stated in another thread of yours. And the rise is 155mm.

Here you go, Mark. Measured twice this time.

measurements for Mark.jpg
Thank you for this Roger.

Can I ask is the Top Riser 20mm or 61mm from the C/L ? Sorry but it's not clear.

You have a lot of different going,s there but it's a old staircase so some deviation can occur. Is the second to bottom going on the bottom flight similar?
The 161mm is the riser on the first step of the bottom flight....ie the fist step going down from the quarter-platform. The 20mm is the offset you asked for in 2.

Is the second to bottom going on the bottom flight similar?...You do mean right down near ground level ?
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Re: Past project

Post by Meccarroll » Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:07 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:47 pm






Is the second to bottom going on the bottom flight similar?...You do mean right down near ground level ?
Bottom flight and Second from bottom Rodger. When you next visit the stairs.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:08 pm

Here’s my version with your dimensions?. What do you think, are the dimensions correct.
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70CB3DFA-BFCE-4D75-BB50-9F43FF1C6F78.jpeg

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:40 pm

Oldboy22 wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:08 pm
Here’s my version with your dimensions?. What do you think, are the dimensions correct.
That looks really good. I'm optimistic !
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Re: Past project

Post by Meccarroll » Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:13 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:40 pm
Oldboy22 wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:08 pm
Here’s my version with your dimensions?. What do you think, are the dimensions correct.
That looks really good. I'm optimistic !
I think the fruits of this discussion are down to a good teacher (Oldboy22) and student who is determined to learn(thatsnotafestool). Looking forward to seeing the mock up.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:06 am

Meccarroll wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:13 pm
thatsnotafestool wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:40 pm
Oldboy22 wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:08 pm
Here’s my version with your dimensions?. What do you think, are the dimensions correct.
That looks really good. I'm optimistic !
I think the fruits of this discussion are down to a good teacher (Oldboy22) and student who is determined to learn(thatsnotafestool). Looking forward to seeing the mock up.
Thanks, hope everyone is enjoying it. I can’t wait to see the mock up too.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:08 am

Here’s my final drawing and some close ups hopefully you have everything you need to start cutting.
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1BE23BD2-18A3-473F-96A2-41B5BA5203D8.jpeg
375A23E6-B6B0-44FE-80E2-11EDAD796ED7.jpeg
A201CE41-35E4-496A-AE8B-A004BA6BECAF.jpeg
FD676742-4D64-4EF9-A1A0-016D68A2D76C.jpeg

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:50 am

Can I just confirm that I've worked out correctly the sequence to get the lower bevel ?

1a) Draw the line at 90 degrees to the 'straight' line of the easing.

1b) Draw the other dotted mauve line where it intersects

2) Measure the angle

3) Transfer to the bottom of the drawing

4) Draw in the lower bevel line
Draing the lower bevel.png
Also I'm not clear on the purpose of the construct inside the oval.
query.png
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:47 am

Possible that I've got it wrong as the bevel angle for the lower bevel comes out at 72.4 degrees.

That for the top bevel concurs with your figure of 43.6
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:50 am

Yup..definitely got it wrong as I've noticed the arc in purple and if I try to replicate it on my drawing it doesn't accord with yours.

If you get a moment, could you please let me know were I'm going wrong. Many thanks.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:03 pm

Bevel sequence looks okay you can check it’s correct by following the other method in magenta.

The development in the ellipse.

Draw a circle on the intersection of the centre line in the plan and the radius equal to the width of your chosen handrail width, the small circle, then copy that circle to the intersection of the radius and the ordinate on the ellipse base line. That is the minor axis points to draw the outside of the wreath on the inclined plain.

Develop the radius of the small circle (your handrail width) down to the semi-circle base line, and transfer as normal to give you the major axis points for the ellipse.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:11 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:47 am
Possible that I've got it wrong as the bevel angle for the lower bevel comes out at 72.4 degrees.

That for the top bevel concurs with your figure of 43.6
Your checking it against the wrong drawing drawn without your measurements, I posted updated drawings this morning and it’s very close, I don’t know why it’s different you haven’t shown your drawing.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:31 pm

Oldboy22 wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:11 pm
thatsnotafestool wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:47 am
Possible that I've got it wrong as the bevel angle for the lower bevel comes out at 72.4 degrees.

That for the top bevel concurs with your figure of 43.6
Your checking it against the wrong drawing drawn without your measurements, I posted updated drawings this morning and it’s very close, I don’t know why it’s different you haven’t shown your drawing.
Ah.. my mistake. Still a couple of degrees out though (70 cf. 72). Note the arc. Different touch points to yours. I think that the way to work out the lower bevel is to draw the line in red. If so, what's the criteria how do do it. 90 degrees to the easing straight line ?
lower bevel woes.png
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:32 pm

Mark

Here's the dimensions you asked for.
measurements for Mark 2.jpg
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:28 pm

The red line close to the actual line should be at 90deg to the lower pitch line, then draw a line from the extended upper inclined tangent to where it touches on the vertical line.

Or try the other way draw horizontal line and a vertical line from the points shown ,where they form a corner scribe a circle to just kiss the line shown. Copy that to the junction of the horizontal base line and the level tangent in the plan, draw a line down to the corner .

They should both give the same angle.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:30 pm

As my first drawing in today posting

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:24 pm

Can you confirm that this is the right approach, please.

Draw this line at 90 degrees - as shown
LB1.png
Draw this line from the base line and through the intersect point of the line you've just drawn.
LB2.png

Measure this angle
LB3.png
I'm not as au fait as you are with the terminology of all the lines. I really need to make a drawing with all the line names marked up. So I really struggle with this type of sentence, I'm afraid.

The red line close to the actual line should be at 90deg to the lower pitch line, then draw a line from the extended upper inclined tangent to where it touches on the vertical line.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:44 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:24 pm
Can you confirm that this is the right approach, please.

Draw this line at 90 degrees - as shown
LB1.png

Draw this line from the base line and through the intersect point of the line you've just drawn.
LB2.png


Measure this angle
LB3.png

I'm not as au fait as you are with the terminology of all the lines. I really need to make a drawing with all the line names marked up. So I really struggle with this type of sentence, I'm afraid.

The red line close to the actual line should be at 90deg to the lower pitch line, then draw a line from the extended upper inclined tangent to where it touches on the vertical line.
First picture okay
Second picture is wrong, swing an arc to the right from that point, where it touches the vertical line that’s where you draw the angle line to.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:51 pm

Oldboy22 wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:44 pm
....
First picture okay
Second picture is wrong, swing an arc to the right from that point, where it touches the vertical line that’s where you draw the angle line to.

BINGO ! Thank you. 70.3 degrees
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:41 pm

Oldboy22 wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:03 pm
Bevel sequence looks okay you can check it’s correct by following the other method in magenta.

The development in the ellipse.

Draw a circle on the intersection of the centre line in the plan and the radius equal to the width of your chosen handrail width, the small circle, then copy that circle to the intersection of the radius and the ordinate on the ellipse base line. That is the minor axis points to draw the outside of the wreath on the inclined plain.

Develop the radius of the small circle (your handrail width) down to the semi-circle base line, and transfer as normal to give you the major axis points for the ellipse.
Afraid I don't follow this. Are you talking about what I put inside the red oval or how the two green lines ..more or less parallel to the c/l on the ellipse are created ?
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:49 pm

Yes I’m talking about forming the the actual inside and outside of the wreath in green

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:24 pm

OK..thought that might be the case. Think I'll just use my Flexicurve!

I tried messing about with ellipses and made a pigs' ear.
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:39 pm

The thought occurred to me. Once one has drawn the easing and the wreath (and especially the latter) that as a 'proof of concept' all you need to do is have two lumps of wood. One for the easing - one end cut at 90 degrees and the other cut at 90 degrees but at the appropriate angle. The other the wreath - again cut at the right length and effectively the correct compound angle on either end. If that works then carry on. If not then there is something wrong.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:48 pm

Come on man , what you thinking, just follow the steps.
There are NO COMPOUND ANGLES involved, all the information is there, just read the drawings.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:59 pm

OK...maybe not a compound angle in its purist sense but at the end of the day, you've got a lump of wood to fit between two other lumps of wood. The faces on your lump of wood have to match up with the two faces on the two other lumps of wood. At the correct angle - in both directions. The fancy twiddly bit in between is, at this moment in time, irrelevant.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:13 pm

I think you should stop thinking about it for a few days and start again when your fresh.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:22 pm

I'm perfectly fresh, thank you. Think about it this way. The wreath has a face at each end. It's cut at a particular angle in all directions to match up with the face at the end of ...well, whatever...it's irrelevant. I could hang a bit of 4x2 with a 90 degree cut on it from my workshop ceiling. I could then stick another bit some feet away and offset as well with another 90 degree cut on the end. I could then get a lump of wood and cut two faces that matched each of those cuts and insert it between the two bits and get a perfect fit. It's still an ugly lump of wood between the two. But at this moment in time is irrelevant. The key is that those faces meet accurately.

The finesse is in removing the extraneous material from that lump of wood.

But the key fact is....those two faces have to meet spot-on.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:19 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:39 pm
The thought occurred to me. Once one has drawn the easing and the wreath (and especially the latter) that as a 'proof of concept' all you need to do is have two lumps of wood. One for the easing - one end cut at 90 degrees and the other cut at 90 degrees but at the appropriate angle. The other the wreath - again cut at the right length and effectively the correct compound angle on either end. If that works then carry on. If not then there is something wrong.
It will work, this technique has been used for centuries and it will follow the curve in the plan exactly so all your balusters will be perfectly plumb, you also know the radius to make a curved piece for the string. You could have saved all this time learning tangent handrailing at just followed Our friend from Thailand’s technique. Keep the faith.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:30 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:24 pm
OK..thought that might be the case. Think I'll just use my Flexicurve!

I tried messing about with ellipses and made a pigs' ear.
If you just take a little extra time to develop the inside and outside of the wreath you will get a much better, and smoother turn.

It will also give you the correct width at each end where you need to apply the bevels.

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:33 am

Oldboy22 wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:30 am
thatsnotafestool wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:24 pm
OK..thought that might be the case. Think I'll just use my Flexicurve!

I tried messing about with ellipses and made a pigs' ear.
If you just take a little extra time to develop the inside and outside of the wreath you will get a much better, and smoother turn.

It will also give you the correct width at each end where you need to apply the bevels.
Yup...managed to work out how to do this, thanks.
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:40 am

Oldboy22 wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:19 am
thatsnotafestool wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:39 pm
The thought occurred to me. Once one has drawn the easing and the wreath (and especially the latter) that as a 'proof of concept' all you need to do is have two lumps of wood. One for the easing - one end cut at 90 degrees and the other cut at 90 degrees but at the appropriate angle. The other the wreath - again cut at the right length and effectively the correct compound angle on either end. If that works then carry on. If not then there is something wrong.
It will work, this technique has been used for centuries and it will follow the curve in the plan exactly so all your balusters will be perfectly plumb, you also know the radius to make a curved piece for the string. You could have saved all this time learning tangent handrailing at just followed Our friend from Thailand’s technique. Keep the faith.
I'm clearly not explaining myself very well. I am not suggesting that the rest of the wreath is not properly carved, shaped and moulded. You've spent a lifetime looking at this tangent stuff. I haven't and so for me there is nothing like offering up the wreath 'block' to check it's got the right ends, meets the adjoining handrail etc before wasting a lot of time and energy shaping it...only to discover that it doesn't fit because I cocked up my drawing.
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:03 am

Okay that’s good I was getting worried it had all been for nothing, don’t forget take some pictures of each stage so we can All see the process and final results.

GOOD LUCK.

No you don’t need it, it’s in the bag 😀

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:41 am

This is a different plan and pitch but it should go something like this.
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D3F41F82-DAF5-4AB3-B0E2-C959BD81C12F.jpeg
0D65F5D2-4297-4663-A772-6743B4825AAC.jpeg
22406390-126B-425D-81E3-9A25066BDE5F.jpeg

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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:54 am

Hopefully !

An anecdotal story from my past perhaps explains why I like to 'belt-and-brace' a bit....aka .... a little knowledge (or not) is a dangerous thing.

I was totally renovating an old black-and-white house. I'd ordered some small double-glazing units to go into the casement windows. IIRC 6 units per opener. They'd telephoned me to ask if the dimensions were correct to which I replied 'Yes'. A few days later, they called to ask me to come in and check them. When I got there the assistant said "I'll go and get one" and went out the back. She returned with her hands behind her back. With a flourish she brought out her hands and there, nestling in the palm of one hand has to have been the world's smallest double-glazed unit at around 2" x 3". I'd had a senior moment and forgotten the 1xx and 2xx mm off the dimensions.

Of course, if they'd said "Are you sure because they are going to be very, very small. As in fit into the palm of my hand" then I'd have cottoned on.
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Re: Past project

Post by thatsnotafestool » Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:21 pm

Oldboy22 wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:41 am
This is a different plan and pitch but it should go something like this.
What aspects of the design would make the bevel line slant to the right as in your top photo ?

Also what's the significance, please, of the red line ?
D3F41F82-DAF5-4AB3-B0E2-C959BD81C12F.jpeg
D3F41F82-DAF5-4AB3-B0E2-C959BD81C12F.jpeg (35.84 KiB) Viewed 539 times
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:26 pm

I’m not 100% sure about placing the bevel, (lack of practical experience coming into play now)
But I think both your bevels should be as my pictures.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:31 pm

That line is the centre line, drawn first then it’s shifted to give the bevel. Both ends should be in the centre even though one doesn’t twist as much.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:32 pm

You also need a horizontal line in the centre and the bevel goes through that.

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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:35 pm

Here
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Re: Past project

Post by Oldboy22 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:42 pm

It won’t look right until the twist is applied, take your time and square it up like my third picture

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