Joinerysoft

[Meccarroll]

This thread looks to be getting way off topic!
This forum is for professional and amateur points of view about woodwork, surly site moderators should intervene to keep posts in line.

Mark

[Top Notch Joiner]

Hi Mark,

I agree. I hold my hands up to retaliating, when provoked. I can't help myself. That's how I am. I find this to be a problem on all internet forums. If a poster goes against the grain, or has strong opinions, people feel the need to provoke that poster. I feel that I have some fair points to discuss with Alan Turner of Joinerysoft, and I look forward to doing so. In the mean time, if the internet troll's can refrain from posting offensive pictures, that would be great.

[MJ80]

1 - Yes 'Had' - I have wrapped up my business and emigrated, still got the software and dongle but no updates
2 - The software didn't move in the direction I was going in so I switched over to Sketchup which I find quicker for designing kitchens, layouts and furniture. It is fine for using standard door styles and cab sizes, but didn't personally work for me for bespoke. Though it would spit out estimates and cutting lists.
3 - Looked at other software and was impressed with Articad, but I build a library of standard cabs in sketchup instead. I couldn't justify getting involved with and learning another piece of software when slowing down and winding up work
4 - Didn't see the point in getting into the updated version of the software as would have to buy my way back into the system for another £1500

Sounds to me like you are more annoyed at yourself and have never got to grips with the product and are having a strop. Like all of these things they are huge and customisable and very very annoying and involved a crap load of data entry.

So at the moment
I use Sketchup and Layout for pretty much everything design side
I use MaxCut for all board and edging work
I used Sage for my accounting
I have Excel for pricing on templates I made which works well enough for me
For everything I have a high tech see through bright pink clipboard and a pencil. It all stays on the clipboard and at the end of the job gets stapled together and filed. Plus it sticks out like a sore thumb in the workshop and I have also found it works just as well overseas. You don't even need a plug adapter.

OK? It sucks I know, but that is how it is.

[Top Notch Joiner]

1 - Yes 'Had' - I have wrapped up my business and emigrated, still got the software and dongle but no updates
2 - The software didn't move in the direction I was going in so I switched over to Sketchup which I find quicker for designing kitchens, layouts and furniture. It is fine for using standard door styles and cab sizes, but didn't personally work for me for bespoke. Though it would spit out estimates and cutting lists.
3 - Looked at other software and was impressed with Articad, but I build a library of standard cabs in sketchup instead. I couldn't justify getting involved with and learning another piece of software when slowing down and winding up work
4 - Didn't see the point in getting into the updated version of the software as would have to buy my way back into the system for another £1500

Sounds to me like you are more annoyed at yourself and have never got to grips with the product and are having a strop. Like all of these things they are huge and customisable and very very annoying and involved a crap load of data entry.

So at the moment
I use Sketchup and Layout for pretty much everything design side
I use MaxCut for all board and edging work
I used Sage for my accounting
I have Excel for pricing on templates I made which works well enough for me
For everything I have a high tech see through bright pink clipboard and a pencil. It all stays on the clipboard and at the end of the job gets stapled together and filed. Plus it sticks out like a sore thumb in the workshop and I have also found it works just as well overseas. You don't even need a plug adapter.

OK? It sucks I know, but that is how it is.

Thanks for your input. In some respects, I guess I am annoyed at myself. Mainly for rushing into the purchase in the first place. At the time, when I purchased Joinerysoft, I had a bit of cash on the hip, and the sales rep, who was a nice guy by the way, only had to turn on his lap top, and I was sucked in! On the face of it, Joinerysoft looks very impressive. If you're running a team of joiners, and you have a set style of casement window, sash window, storm proof window, etc, it will work well for you. If, on the other hand, you are producing purpose made joinery, for conservation areas and listed buildings, like I do, Joinerysoft can be incredibly frustrating. I do wish that I had looked into it in more depth, I have to be honest.

I can live with an annual fee, IF it represents value for money. For me, a sole trader, who is a competent user, and requires a dozen U-Value certificates at best, per year, £900 represents incredibly poor value for my money. This is why I no longer pay the fee. But, because I no longer pay the fee, Joinerysoft have turned of my U-Value calculator! When you consider the HUGE initial outlay, I just find that a bit naughty. And the fact that they DOUBLED my second year fee, without any warning at all, I found totally unacceptable.

I think a fairer, pay as you go service for 'help & support', would represent better value for the competent users.

Really sorry for going over and over old ground. Oh, and think of us stuck here in Blighty, whilst you put another shrimp on your barbie!

[planeloco]

I can live with an annual fee, IF it represents value for money. For me, a sole trader, who is a competent user, and requires a dozen U-Value certificates at best, per year, £900 represents incredibly poor value for my money. This is why I no longer pay the fee. But, because I no longer pay the fee, Joinerysoft have turned of my U-Value calculator! When you consider the HUGE initial outlay, I just find that a bit naughty. And the fact that they DOUBLED my second year fee, without any warning at all, I found totally unacceptable.

I think a fairer, pay as you go service for 'help & support', would represent better value for the competent users.

Obviously I can't comment on your circumstances as we don't know the full details but I have managed software support for a relatively small software company in the medical diagnostics world and there are clear parallels with all small software houses. They all live and die buy their software maintenance contracts as without them there is no regular income. Software sales obviously help but they do tend to be sporadic especially in the more specialist markets.

Annual maintenance tends to be in the 15% to 25% of the original software cost range, (ours is 20%) and is usually bundled in the software cost for the first year so the second year is when the first payment is due. Rises can be due to a heavily discounted first and or second year maintenance so when you move to the regular rate you can see a large increase. Also if you increase the capability of the software by switching features on the price can increase. It is also fair to say customers should be informed about any change before it happens but breakdowns in communication do happen and maybe they thought you did know, this is speculation on my part.

In terms of a "pay as you go" support system, it is very tricky for a small software support team to manage this in a limited market with low numbers of users. Alan mentioned 700 customers which is very low, we have approx 3000, some of which spend millions a year and we cannot afford to run pay as you go support as you have to pay someone or a group of people to provide that support and if you only get one 15 min consultation for a week you cannot stop paying them.

I can't believe that Alan responded on an open forum, it never ends well. We tried support on a closed moderated customer forum but it still ends up in a fight, something to do with the anonymity of the internet world bringing out the worst in people. Also never have a contentious discussion in writing, people have far to long to dwell on negative points and it breeds bad feeling. Given Alan's attempt to respond, he is not running away from your issues (well maybe online he is with some justification), I am convinced he is not a badun and trying to screw you but there has been a/some mistakes somewhere down the line. I am sure that face to face a mutually satisfactory conclusion can be arrived at. Maybe a limited regular payment for low quantity of U number certificates or something else depending on his business model.

Only you can say what your value point is. It sounds like Joinerysoft might not be for you from a value perspective. Maybe time to cut your losses and move on to something more appropriate IMO.

[Top Notch Joiner]

I can live with an annual fee, IF it represents value for money. For me, a sole trader, who is a competent user, and requires a dozen U-Value certificates at best, per year, £900 represents incredibly poor value for my money. This is why I no longer pay the fee. But, because I no longer pay the fee, Joinerysoft have turned of my U-Value calculator! When you consider the HUGE initial outlay, I just find that a bit naughty. And the fact that they DOUBLED my second year fee, without any warning at all, I found totally unacceptable.

I think a fairer, pay as you go service for 'help & support', would represent better value for the competent users.

Obviously I can't comment on your circumstances as we don't know the full details but I have managed software support for a relatively small software company in the medical diagnostics world and there are clear parallels with all small software houses. They all live and die buy their software maintenance contracts as without them there is no regular income. Software sales obviously help but they do tend to be sporadic especially in the more specialist markets.

Annual maintenance tends to be in the 15% to 25% of the original software cost range, (ours is 20%) and is usually bundled in the software cost for the first year so the second year is when the first payment is due. Rises can be due to a heavily discounted first and or second year maintenance so when you move to the regular rate you can see a large increase. Also if you increase the capability of the software by switching features on the price can increase. It is also fair to say customers should be informed about any change before it happens but breakdowns in communication do happen and maybe they thought you did know, this is speculation on my part.

In terms of a "pay as you go" support system, it is very tricky for a small software support team to manage this in a limited market with low numbers of users. Alan mentioned 700 customers which is very low, we have approx 3000, some of which spend millions a year and we cannot afford to run pay as you go support as you have to pay someone or a group of people to provide that support and if you only get one 15 min consultation for a week you cannot stop paying them.

I can't believe that Alan responded on an open forum, it never ends well. We tried support on a closed moderated customer forum but it still ends up in a fight, something to do with the anonymity of the internet world bringing out the worst in people. Also never have a contentious discussion in writing, people have far to long to dwell on negative points and it breeds bad feeling. Given Alan's attempt to respond, he is not running away from your issues (well maybe online he is with some justification), I am convinced he is not a badun and trying to screw you but there has been a/some mistakes somewhere down the line. I am sure that face to face a mutually satisfactory conclusion can be arrived at. Maybe a limited regular payment for low quantity of U number certificates or something else depending on his business model.

Only you can say what your value point is. It sounds like Joinerysoft might not be for you from a value perspective. Maybe time to cut your losses and move on to something more appropriate IMO.

It amazes me, the wide range of the general public who use this forum. I was expecting it to be a bunch of joiners/cabinet makers arguing the toss over all things trade related. Anyway, many thanks for your insight into the world of software companies.

I guess I would be happy to pay a monthly 'rent', if my U-Value calculator was switched back on. Obviously, it would need to represent value for money for my personal usage. I just think the maintenance fee for Joinerysoft needs revising. I hate going over and over the same old ground again and again, but for a sole trader who is a competent user, £900 per year is way off the mark! There's no way on earth that I can justify spending that sort of money, considering what I personally get for that money. A quarter of that amount would be somewhere near acceptable, and that would include VAT. Then the company at least gets something and I am not feeling hard done by. As it stands, it feels as though I am/was subsidising the company, so that they can grow and prosper. You see, when you visit their all singing, all dancing, marketing suite at the NEC, or see their glossy full page adverts in the trade press, you just think to yourself, "Cor blimey! They've got some front!". If they toned down the marketing, they maybe able to offer us customers a more affordable maintenance fee, IMO. Also, bling bling marketing puts customers off, IMO. It smacks of large profits. OK, Alan says he isn't making large profits and he's pumping his own money into the company, but on the face of it, people aren't going to know that. All they will see is the posh marketing suite and think, they're making too much money. That's my take on it anyway. Also, I don't think that they have a real competitor. That allows them to become complacent and charge what they want, IMO.

[PABLO123]

Why don't you just factor the £900 into your jobs, that's what I do, simples?
Paul

[planeloco]

It amazes me, the wide range of the general public who use this forum. I was expecting it to be a bunch of joiners/cabinet makers arguing the toss over all things trade related. Anyway, many thanks for your insight into the world of software companies.

I guess I would be happy to pay a monthly 'rent', if my U-Value calculator was switched back on. Obviously, it would need to represent value for money for my personal usage. I just think the maintenance fee for Joinerysoft needs revising. I hate going over and over the same old ground again and again, but for a sole trader who is a competent user, £900 per year is way off the mark! There's no way on earth that I can justify spending that sort of money, considering what I personally get for that money. A quarter of that amount would be somewhere near acceptable, and that would include VAT. Then the company at least gets something and I am not feeling hard done by. As it stands, it feels as though I am/was subsidising the company, so that they can grow and prosper. You see, when you visit their all singing, all dancing, marketing suite at the NEC, or see their glossy full page adverts in the trade press, you just think to yourself, "Cor blimey! They've got some front!". If they toned down the marketing, they maybe able to offer us customers a more affordable maintenance fee, IMO. Also, bling bling marketing puts customers off, IMO. It smacks of large profits. OK, Alan says he isn't making large profits and he's pumping his own money into the company, but on the face of it, people aren't going to know that. All they will see is the posh marketing suite and think, they're making too much money. That's my take on it anyway. Also, I don't think that they have a real competitor. That allows them to become complacent and charge what they want, IMO.

Yup, strictly home woodworker here, I don't have the skills to earn my living this way unfortunately

You raise 2 points here: 1/ The maintenance is not to pay for just support but for software development by the way of fixes, new features and getting it to work on various changing platforms such as Windows 7,8,8.1,10 possibly legacy support for XP and Windows 2000. If they use databases etc they need to test for all the different platforms and version for that as well. Software testing becomes a huge and I really mean huge piece of the expenditure and the sucky thing is that much of the testing is not visible or appreciated by the end users. We have to deal with FDA regulations in the USA as well which is a real ball ache.

Point 2 is the marketing and visible image of the company, if they relied on some hand photocopied pieces of paper and an entry in Yellow pages, they would not get business from the industry. It is a necessary expense. We have to do it as well and I hate all that BS but when we cut back on our spending in this area we see an appreciable drop off in new business.

Anyway, don't mean to try and defend the software industry, just trying to help you appreciate how it works. Good luck in finding a suitable resolution.

[mark270981]

Here is my 2 pennies worth.

I think 10k for a software package is lot of money considering its a estimating software - here is why i think that - as a trades man I now roughly have an idea what i would charge for an item whether its a reception counter or 100 doorsets the reason for this is because I know my market, I also know my lads work rates some are quicker than others. I don't need to spend 10k on a piece of software to work this out for me, I spent 50 quid (plus a laptop) on an estimating app which basically collates all the info i need to price a job and commercially manage one. Before I bought this I used an Excel spreadsheet which only cost me my time to create it (and excel i suppose)

For 10k I would expect any updates to be free of charge, as my 50 quid app (now only 20 quid) updates for free.

However I have to say if I were to spend 10k on software (which I wouldn't) I would find out absolutely everything I could about it - terms and conditions - reviews - running costs etc etc.

My conclusion to this thread is a) You were naive to not to thoroughly research the product before you parted with such a large amount of cash and b) Joinery Soft is far too expensive for the application it serves c) I really don't think you should be hiding behind a cloak of anonymity as i see it as a form of Trolling.

Sorry if the above isn't what you want to read.

[Top Notch Joiner]

Hi guys, both of the last two posts have interesting and worthwhile points. I have taken all of them on board.

I have made my feelings perfectly clear. I doubt that anything will change though. I won't be paying the annual fee, whilst it is such poor value for me. As I said previously, the fee would have to be a quarter of £900, before am remotely interested. I still don't get why the U-Value calculator needs to be switched off mind. I find that unacceptable. The initial outlay is significant enough, to justify leaving the calculator on.

If this thread does nothing else, it will prevent another joiner, who operates on my kind of scale, from making the same mistake that I did. You live and learn eh?

[tusses]

again and again and again and again

We know ... you said

[Top Notch Joiner]

Apoligies. I know I must sound like a broken record. I just get the impression that some people join in by reading the last few posts.

TBH, I have bored myself!

[hammertime]

Always read the small print

[Top Notch Joiner]

Always read the small print

Thanks for that.

[promhandicam]

I feel that I have some fair points to discuss with Alan Turner of Joinerysoft, and look forward to doing so.

TNJ, I think your best course of action is to do just that - in person. You've made your views known and Alan has responded. I for one won't be buying Joinerysoft now, but then again I would never have considered it at even a 10th of the asking price.

[Top Notch Joiner]

I feel that I have some fair points to discuss with Alan Turner of Joinerysoft, and look forward to doing so.

TNJ, I think your best course of action is to do just that - in person. You've made your views known and Alan has responded. I for one won't be buying Joinerysoft now, but then again I would never have considered it at even a 10th of the asking price.

Hi Steve,

As I've mentioned in a previous post (the broken records on again), I have written to and spoken to Alan on the telephone, about all of the issues that I have raised on here. I had to wait many months for a response to my letter, and the response left me feeling a bit like I had to like it or lump it. This is why, I have chosen to voice my concerns publicly.

Alan has probably worked out who I am by now. TBH, If I were to speak to him now, I can't see how I would get anything other than a negative response. I have been very critical of him and his company. I can't see how he would have anything other than ill feeling towards me now. He may say that, that wouldn't be the case, but he's human isn't he?

I don't see him revising his annual fee. I would like to think he might turn on the U-Value calculator for all of his customers who don't pay the annual fee. After all, we paid through the nose for the software in the first instance.

This should be a lesson to him really. Deal with your customers concerns fairly. At least give the impression that you will give the suggestions some thought, and not just brush the complaint under the carpet. I have had an overwhelming feeling that I don't matter any more, I'm in the bag! It's all about the next customer. You can't leave customers feeling like that Alan.

[thatsnotafestool]

Oh, for Christ sake....turn the bloody record off.

You don't half whinge on and on and on and on. And I thought I was bad.

[mark270981]

you are bad Roger

[Top Notch Joiner]

Oh, for Christ sake....turn the bloody record off.

You don't half whinge on and on and on and on. And I thought I was bad.

I thought I was on your 'ignore' list?

You can't slip back in here thinking I won't notice you, now that you've got a new avator (picture thingy).

And yes, I am actually boring myself now! Maybe I need a day off? What do you think? Second thoughts, don't answer that!

[hammertime]

Could have had a few nice holidays with the money you spanked on the software [emoji12]

[senior]

Top notch ......... my two penneth worth.
This forum is tiny and full of tw*ts who have the attention span of a gnat, me included, especially when you have added zero to the forum 43 posts, 38 in this thread, of which all say exactly the same.
To be honest you need a bigger forum, may I direct you here http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/

You would be appreciated there, they love a sob story and going round in circles is welcomed with open arms. You'e be a fecking hero, an internet warrior even.

We get bored very quickly. Still look on the bright side, your rant has only reached about 10 people all of which now seem to like Alan Turner.

[Leveller2911]

Top notch ......... my two penneth worth.
This forum is tiny and full of tw*ts who have the attention span of a gnat, me included, especially when you have added zero to the forum 43 posts, 38 in this thread, of which all say exactly the same.
To be honest you need a bigger forum, may I direct you here http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/

You would be appreciated there, they love a sob story and going round in circles is welcomed with open arms. You'e be a fecking hero, an internet warrior even.

We get bored very quickly. Still look on the bright side, your rant has only reached about 10 people all of which now seem to like Alan Turner.

Your wasted on here Bobby......

You should take up counselling as a sideline, I reckon The Samaritans would headhunt you....

[Top Notch Joiner]

Hi Guys,

I have to say, I am a touch disapointed at the calibre of poster who has entered their two penneth's worth on this thread. Not one Joinerysoft customer!!!! What have you all got sense, or what???? Sorry, I couldn't resist it.

It would appear that their are more kitchen based woodworkers on this forum, than quality joiners, such as myself .

Bit of a waste of time really. However, thanks for the suggestion of the other forum Mr. Grumpy. I may try my luck on there.

I know I've brightened up your world's for a week or two. Most of you have hung on my every word, this is clear.

[Top Notch Joiner]

Could have built a few nice holiday resorts with the money you spanked on the software.

I have edited your comment, to add more realism ^^^^^^^

[Leveller2911]

Hi Guys,

It would appear that their are more kitchen based woodworkers on this forum, than quality joiners, such as myself .

Bit of a waste of time really. However, thanks for the suggestion of the other forum Mr. Grumpy. I may try my luck on there.

I know I've brightened up your world's for a week or two. Most of you have hung on my every word, this is clear.

To be fair TNJ, I think members on here seem to want a forum to swap ideas around, ask for advice , have a laugh and post piccys of their work. I worked out once (with help) how to post pix but I've forgotten but I really enjoy looking at pix of other guys work.

What they don't want is an endless thread bemoaning a company many have no knowledge off and the same points being raised day after day. I once started a thread about issues with Axminster tools but I soon realised that other members couldn't really affect what were "my problems" so there was no benefit to taking the thread further. You came on here, barely posted on any other thread so it seems you just joined to whinge (sorry to sound harsh). My own opinion is, on the face of it there is blame attached to both sides but my opinion is just that, my own, so there really isn't anything anyone on here can do to help resolve the issues. The only thing I would suggest is contacting the FBS if your a member and get some legal advice.

Just to add, there are plenty of good Joiners on here and if you had bothered spending time searching the threads you would see some really good quality Joinery and some great kicthens too.

Good luck and I hope you get it sorted..........Regards Leveller....

[thatsnotafestool]

And he's off and taken Senior's advice

[Neil_C]

Well done Bobby,

Top notch ......... my two penneth worth.
This forum is tiny and full of tw*ts who have the attention span of a gnat, me included, especially when you have added zero to the forum 43 posts, 38 in this thread, of which all say exactly the same.
To be honest you need a bigger forum, may I direct you here http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/

You would be appreciated there, they love a sob story and going round in circles is welcomed with open arms. You'e be a fecking hero, an internet warrior even.

We get bored very quickly. Still look on the bright side, your rant has only reached about 10 people all of which now seem to like Alan Turner.

You were successful.

[Top Notch Joiner]

I am British. We British love nothing more than a good old moan.

Hey, I've had my say, I did go on the other forum that Mr Grumpy mentioned, but they have now locked the thread!

I look at my online ranting as a form of feedback, that's all. Nothing wrong with that.

[Doug]

Hey, I've had my say, I did go on the other forum that Mr Grumpy mentioned, but they have now locked the thread!

That's what happens when the moderators know what the buttons do, Jase would have broken the forum if he'd tried to lock the thread

[senior]

Well done Bobby,


You were successful.

Indeed, however TNJ wasn't..............

[Kenny_B]

I'm one of the sad sacks from the other forum.

I'm not that sad though, as I really have very little sympathy for you.

Maybe consider working for someone else, seriously Mr Grumpy's dog's have more business acumen than you (free cake anybody ?)

You've made a massive mistake now move on with your life.

[Top Notch Joiner]

Well done Bobby,


You were successful.

Indeed, however TNJ wasn't..............

Two posts, and they showed me the door! Must be a forum World record, surely?

[MJ80]

I seriously wouldn't start bracketing people here as kitchen makers. We have all I'd be fair to say made our fair share of windows doors and staircases, miles of mouldings .... If you haven't noticed in your master plan there is good money to be made elsewhere in this game.

[jake]

Well done Bobby,


You were successful.

Indeed, however TNJ wasn't..............

Two posts, and they showed me the door! Must be a forum World record, surely?

Too much overlap, you were a marked man from this thread.

[sgiandubh]

We have all I'd be fair to say made our fair share of windows doors and staircases, miles of mouldings ....

Not me. I'm a furniture man. I leave all that stuff to you lot. Slainte.

[MJ80]

We have all I'd be fair to say made our fair share of windows doors and staircases, miles of mouldings ....

Not me. I'm a furniture man. I leave all that stuff to you lot. Slainte.

Oh how the other half live

[mark270981]

Windows and doors are all made out Pvc though arent they?

[Top Notch Joiner]

Kitchens are generally made from sh*t materials, I mean sheet materials.

[tusses]

oh dear ... are we still feeding this one ?

[york33]