Joinerysoft

[Top Notch Joiner]

Hello. I have just discovered this forum. I hope you don't mind me barging in and starting a new topic.

Anyway, I would like to hear from some other users/customers of Joinerysoft. I would like to hear what other customers think of the company and the software. I purchased most of the modules, some time ago now. It was sold to me with a view to making my life easier and freeing up time. Does it do that? No, I don't believe it does. It takes just as long to do a quote with Joinerysoft, as it did when I used to do it the old fashioned way, on the back of a fag packet. In fact, it probably takes longer now. The initial outlay was substantial. We are talking the best part of 10 grand. Was it a good investment? No. I don't honestly believe that it was.

Now lets move onto the ongoing annual fees, or the 'ransom', as I like to call it. Until I seen the light and stopped paying the annual fee, I was paying the best part of a grand per year for 'maintenance'. If there was a problem, I could call them up and they would help. All well and good, but when you make one 15 minute call for help in a year, a grand is feeling a bit heavy. Well, more than a bit. If you don't pay the 'maintenance', they turn off your U-Value calculator. And if you have a problem with your very expensive software, you've had it. That is why I refer to the annual fee as the 'ransom'. Greed, is a word that springs to mind with this company. To say that I am less than impressed with not only my investment, but the company as a whole would be an understatement.

If you have purchased JMS from Joinerysoft, please let me know how you find it? I will be really interested to hear from other customers.

All the best,
Top Notch Joiner.

[Doug]

If you use the search facility you will see a few threads regarding Joinerysoft.
This was one the MD got involved in
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4560&p=58982&hilit=Joinerysoft#p58982

[jfc]

To be fair you knew all the costs before you bought the product . You then stopped paying so they stopped the service .
Myself , I struggle to see how an office can run a workshop let alone some software .
Out of interest whats the wastage / messed up work due to "other factors" on cnc work ?

[Louis84]

I have seen JMS in use. It looks pretty good but when I hear about these insane prices and renewals I think people must be mad themselves to invest. It really doesn't take long to price stuff up. Most 3d animation software is less than JMS.

[Top Notch Joiner]

Hello again. To answer the question about CNC machine wastage, I don't have a CNC machine, so I don't own the corresponding JMS module.

I would like to also add some more to my initial post:-

* I wasn't made aware that there was an ongoing annual fee, when I purchased the software. At no time was I informed about an ongoing fee. SO BEWARE!

* There was an initial 'maintenance' fee, around the £500 mark, for the first year. I assumed that this fee was a one off, to 'get me off the ground' and up to speed, as it were. The second year Joinerysoft DOUBLED the 'maintenance' fee, without any word of warning what so ever. It came as a total surprise, out of the blue. That was when the company started to irritate me. My accountant picked up on the annual fee and questioned it with me. My accountant said that he was not aware of any other business related software package, that carries an annual fee. Normally, once the software has been purchased, updates are readily available to download free of charge with any software, but not in the case of JMS by Joinerysoft. If you pay the expensive 'ransom', you can have the updates and your U-Values are calculated. If you don't pay the fee, you are literally left out in the cold. If you experience a problem with the software, you are screwed! I know someone else who runs JMS. He said that he stopped paying the fee and then experienced a problem. He rang up, only to be told that he had to pay backdated maintenance fees for a number of years, before they would help him.

* I even asked Joinerysoft to review their annual fee. I suggested that help and support should be charged per session. For example in 15 minute bundles. This fell on deaf ears, so I then decided enough was enough, and I canceled my direct debit.

* I guess, by coming onto this forum and expressing my irritation with this company, I may save someone else from making the expensive mistake that I made. And now that I have discovered this forum, I hope that I can get some feedback about something that I intend to invest in, in the future. I don't mind paying top dollar for products, but when those products don't come with a tip top service, it annoys me. Thanks for reading, and I hope to hear from some other users of JMS on here.

[york33]

There's a huge number of business software packages that charge an annual fee. Accountancy is one of the main ones so your accountant should know about that at the very least! But loads more besides, be it maintenance, updates, antivirus definitions, etc.

It should of course be clear at point of sale what fees may be charged going forward and I don't know enough about Joinerysoft and the way it was sold to you to comment, but it's far from unusual.

[Top Notch Joiner]

There's a huge number of business software packages that charge an annual fee. Accountancy is one of the main ones so your accountant should know about that at the very least! But loads more besides, be it maintenance, updates, antivirus definitions, etc.

It should of course be clear at point of sale what fees may be charged going forward and I don't know enough about Joinerysoft and the way it was sold to you to comment, but it's far from unusual.

Hi there,

Are you able to name some other software packages that charge an annual fee? I would be interested in looking them up, to see how their fees compare. My accountant said that they use the best software available to them, and it does not carry an annual fee. The fact of the matter is, the Joinerysoft annual fee was not made clear to me, in any shape or form, at the point of sale. If this thread/topic does nothing else, it will hopefully draw the attentions of potential Joinerysoft buyers to the annual fee.

[york33]

Get yourself on Google! Start off with Sage, almost every mainstream Antivirus, Commercial Linux distributions, CRM software, etc. In virtually every field there's subscription based software.

Take accounting software, everytime HMRC update something or other, the software needs updating by someone or it's worthless. The vast majority of accounting packages charge an annual/monthly fee for this. I hope he's doing your accounts right!

[Top Notch Joiner]

Get yourself on Google! Start off with Sage, almost every mainstream Antivirus, Commercial Linux distributions, CRM software, etc. In virtually every field there's subscription based software.

Take accounting software, everytime HMRC update something or other, the software needs updating by someone or it's worthless. The vast majority of accounting packages charge an annual/monthly fee for this. I hope he's doing your accounts right!

He uses Sage.

[Top Notch Joiner]

With Joinerysoft, we are talking the best part of £1,000 per year, on top of the best part of 10k initially. How does that compare with these other packages? At the end of the day, that sort of outlay needs to be paying for itself. For me, it doesn't even come close to paying for itself.

[york33]

He'll know all about it then! They pretty much charge everything monthly or annually.

[Top Notch Joiner]

He'll know all about it then! They pretty much charge everything monthly or annually.

He definitely said that he wasn't aware of annual fees for his, or other software. Maybe he was referring to the scale of the Joinerysoft fee? I briefly went on the Sage web site and it mentioned £2.50 per month on the home page. That is a long way short of the best part of a grand per year, for Joinerysoft. And that is for a single user!!!!! I dread to think what the fee is for larger companies, with multiple users.

[Neil_C]

I'm not trying to defend JoinerySoftware, but you can't compare Sage to JoinerySoft in terms of annual maintenance costs. Sage will spread it's cost over many, many thousands of users. JoinerySoft, being in a niche market, will have a lot less customers to cover their development/maintenance costs.

To give you an example, 25% of the purchase cost is not an uncommon annual fee, amongst smaller niche software companies.

[edsof754]

Can you get the name of the software your Accountant uses.

I'm an accountant and I pay a small fortune every year for mine.

[york33]

Whether it's worth it or not is a different matter, for you, evidently not. FWIW, I couldn't see myself ever paying that amount on such software, far rather buy a 4-sider for example.

If it can pay back the initial investment in saved time for some companies (£10k?), then the additional £1k (10%) a year is probably a small price to pay to keep it updated with whatever stuff it updates.

[Top Notch Joiner]

I'm not trying to defend JoinerySoftware, but you can't compare Sage to JoinerySoft in terms of annual maintenance costs. Sage will spread it's cost over many, many thousands of users. JoinerySoft, being in a niche market, will have a lot less customers to cover their development/maintenance costs.

To give you an example, 25% of the purchase cost is not an uncommon annual fee, amongst smaller niche software companies.

Can you name one of these niche software companies that charge 25% of the initial cost, as an annual ongoing fee?

Is it an acceptable practice to firstly, not mention the fee at the point of sale? Then double the fee, after the first year expires, without any prior warning? Is it also acceptable to turn off the U-Value calculator, if you don't pay the best part of £1,000 per year? To reiterate, I was getting 15 minutes of help & support, and a dozen U-Value certificates for £900. How can that be acceptable? Like I said, the help & support should be charged per session, so that competent users aren't penalised. And there is no reason to withdraw the U-Value calculator, when your customer has broken the bank to buy the software in the first instance. It leaves a bad taste in the customers mouth, and they run the risk of getting a bad name.

[Top Notch Joiner]

Whether it's worth it or not is a different matter, for you, evidently not. FWIW, I couldn't see myself ever paying that amount on such software, far rather buy a 4-sider for example.

If it can pay back the initial investment in saved time for some companies (£10k?), then the additional £1k (10%) a year is probably a small price to pay to keep it updated with whatever stuff it updates.

I need a 4-sider. Boy do I wish that I hadn't blown my money on this software! Such a waste of money. You live and learn. Guys, if you need a new machine, buy that instead. Buying Joinerysoft is probably one of my biggest ever regrets. I don't say that lightly either. When I think about what I could have spent the money on instead, my blood boils .

[york33]

Obviously those sorts of things should be transparent and set out to you at point of sale. Don't know enough about it to comment on the specific bits like the U-value calc, does it need regular updating in line with new regs? Seems a bit mean spirited to pull it completely, they could at least leave you with the old/existing one.

As you've forked out a pile of money for it already perhaps you should pay the annual fee and sell your design services (with the help of your expensive software) to other companies round you to try and recoup some of your costs Know anyone who needs U-Value certs? Do they cost money normally? I don't do windows! Dunno, just wondering if there's a way of making the best of a bad job......

[mark270981]

I have the best bit of software ever! It's called construction estimator buts it only available on Mac - but it is ace!!

Cost about 50 quid, but I also need a Mac and that cost 1500 but still cheaper than 10k and I get free updates

[Top Notch Joiner]

I have the best bit of software ever! It's called construction estimator buts it only available on Mac - but it is ace!!

Cost about 50 quid, but I also need a Mac and that cost 1500 but still cheaper than 10k and I get free updates

Yeah, thanks very much for that . I am just wiping the salt out of my wounds as we speak .

Good advise for others though. Many thanks for your input.

[mark270981]

To be fair I couldn't help it.

It looks very professional, automatically gets sent in PDF, you can create reports either your quotation or a breakdown for the office where it shows you hours allowed per item, mark up and cost of materials etc.

I stumbled upon it and I have incorporated it into my business now, one of my clients who perhaps does a turnover of 5 million has also done the same based on what he saw with mine!

[york33]

Have you got a linky Mark? Was going for a nosey but can't find it.........

Ta

[mark270981]

http://www.constructioncostestimator.com/ios/

Come down in price now!

[The Rusted Nail]

Nice one Mark, normally its the other way around and the Mac user is unable to run the software due to it being windows only. I know you can run windows on a Mac but its all a bit of a faff, and I wanted to get a way from MS & windows which is why I switched in the first place.

Watching the tutorials I see it does the costings, have you found these to be accurate or do you end up manually entering in your own material costings and labour rate?

[mark270981]

I enter all my own rates in - that's what makes it so good - what I charge 65 quid for you may charge 75 or 55 - but it's my rate and it won't change unless I deem that it needs to!

It's been a fantastic discovery for me and once you populate it with your data it will be very very handy for you.

Let me know how you get on with it?

[jfc]

St Gobain have a free U-value calculator . You just need to email them for them to send you the link and password .

[thatsnotafestool]

There's a huge number of business software packages that charge an annual fee. Accountancy is one of the main ones so your accountant should know about that at the very least! But loads more besides, be it maintenance, updates, antivirus definitions, etc.

It should of course be clear at point of sale what fees may be charged going forward and I don't know enough about Joinerysoft and the way it was sold to you to comment, but it's far from unusual.

Hi there,

Are you able to name some other software packages that charge an annual fee? I would be interested in looking them up, to see how their fees compare. My accountant said that they use the best software available to them, and it does not carry an annual fee. The fact of the matter is, the Joinerysoft annual fee was not made clear to me, in any shape or form, at the point of sale. If this thread/topic does nothing else, it will hopefully draw the attentions of potential Joinerysoft buyers to the annual fee.

Adobe Creative Suite...you rent the software..so nothing new.

Presumably you ticked the Joinerysoft box saying 'I have read and agree to the terms and conditions'

[jake]

In theory this could well be actionable, in that it could be a breach of contract (if the contract did not include these charges) or a misrepresentation (if everything you were told to induce you to enter into the contract was to the effect that there were no ongoing annual fees). So there is no reason to dismiss your complaints out of hand, but as ever when considering your rights (as opposed to complaints) you will need to be very forensic about establishing exactly what was said and agreed.

[Top Notch Joiner]

http://www.constructioncostestimator.com/ios/

Come down in price now!

That looks really good! And these days, it is available as an app for iphone and ipad, I see.

As you are a seasoned user of this software programme, how easy would it be to set up for the average joiner, who mainly manufactures windows? Casement windows, sash windows, doors and frames, etc? Could you switch between different timber species with relative ease? Could you pick and choose different glazing options with ease? Could you add priming costs, finishing costs (per metre run of section)? Could you set up ironmongery packs? For example:- casement window sets (per opener), sash window sets, door sets. Could you add weather stripping by the meter? If so, this could be extremely efficient for any joiner at a fraction of the cost of Joinerysoft!

[Top Notch Joiner]

St Gobain have a free U-value calculator . You just need to email them for them to send you the link and password .

Do you have to be a customer of theirs? I see they have a company who supply glazing called Glassolutions. Do you have to buy their sealed units before you can get access to their calculator?

[Top Notch Joiner]

Presumably you ticked the Joinerysoft box saying 'I have read and agree to the terms and conditions'

In theory this could well be actionable, in that it could be a breach of contract (if the contract did not include these charges) or a misrepresentation (if everything you were told to induce you to enter into the contract was to the effect that there were no ongoing annual fees). So there is no reason to dismiss your complaints out of hand, but as ever when considering your rights (as opposed to complaints) you will need to be very forensic about establishing exactly what was said and agreed.

I have this morning, dug out all of the paper work that I was given by Joinerysoft. There is no contract. There is no copy of anything that I signed. From memory, I didn't sign anything. There is absolutely nothing, that informs me of an ongoing maintenance fee. Like I've mentioned before, the second year I received an invoice requesting £900! That came as a shock. At that point, I dug out my initial invoice to find that the first years maintenance was 100% less!!!! There was NO PRIOR WARNING! about this price increase. It really makes me angry actually. They are so disorganised! How can they expect customers to just go along with these extortionate price increases, at the drop of a hat? Ultimately though, the ongoing fee was not mentioned to me at the point of sale. Like I say, what really got my goat was the fact that they turned off my U-Value calculator. I paid an arm and a leg for this software, so to have part of it taken away just doesn't sit right with me. I complained and didn't get a response for many months. Then my complaint was just fobbed off and my suggestions were dismissed, leaving me totally isolated with part of my ridiculously priced software unusable. To say that I am angry, is an understatement. I am pleased that I am able to vent my frustrations on this forum to other potential purchasers of Joinerysoft. They can not get away with taking their customers for granted. Thanks for all of your replies so far.

[thatsnotafestool]

Small claims court ?

[Top Notch Joiner]

Small claims court ?

I am hoping that the MD, Alan Turner, will see this topic/thread and come on here to publicly discuss my concerns with me. He has commented on this forum in the past, so there is no reason why he wouldn't come on here again. I tried contacting him directly, but he just dismissed everything that I said, leaving me out in the cold. I would love to see him face up to these issues publicly, this time. It might bring about a better customer experience for ALL Joinerysoft customers, current and future. Let's wait and see if he takes the bait..........

[thatsnotafestool]

I don't know how close you are to Brum but I see that they are at W14.

[Top Notch Joiner]

I don't know how close you are to Brum but I see that they are at W14.

Yes, I have seen their marketing stalls at the NEC before. It is quite a set up. It obviously costs a lot of money to promote a business, on the scale that Joinerysoft do at the NEC. All of their marketing looks as if it must be costing them an arm and a leg. I always find myself wondering, if they toned down the marketing and offered their customers better value, they may do better as a business. Whenever I have seen their all singing, all dancing marketing suite's at the NEC, I always think to myself, so that's where my annual fee goes! It doesn't sit well at all, I have to be honest. In your face, 'bling bling' marketing stinks of excessive profits. That's my opinion anyway.

[york33]

http://www.constructioncostestimator.com/ios/

Come down in price now!

Thanks for that Mark, will have a nosey......

[jfc]

St Gobain have a free U-value calculator . You just need to email them for them to send you the link and password .

Do you have to be a customer of theirs? I see they have a company who supply glazing called Glassolutions. Do you have to buy their sealed units before you can get access to their calculator?

I just emailed their office saying I am a small joinery company and their old u-value calculator seems to have stopped working . They emailed me a d/l for the updated version with a password . I think I emailed somewhere in France or Germany , not the UK .

[mark270981]

http://www.constructioncostestimator.com/ios/

Come down in price now!

That looks really good! And these days, it is available as an app for iphone and ipad, I see.

As you are a seasoned user of this software programme, how easy would it be to set up for the average joiner, who mainly manufactures windows? Casement windows, sash windows, doors and frames, etc? Could you switch between different timber species with relative ease? Could you pick and choose different glazing options with ease? Could you add priming costs, finishing costs (per metre run of section)? Could you set up ironmongery packs? For example:- casement window sets (per opener), sash window sets, door sets. Could you add weather stripping by the meter? If so, this could be extremely efficient for any joiner at a fraction of the cost of Joinerysoft!

Absolutely

[podengo]

I agree joinerysoft is expensive, however it has to be considered carefully like any major purchase.

It is much more than quotation software as it also does production cutting plans, timber quantities for ordering, glass sizes as well as glass drawings for duplex grid layouts.

I have found their support very helpful, they employ ex joiners who understand joinery. They will set up remote access to help work through any issues with you on your computer.

I use sage accounts, the annual support is quite expensive but I have no choice since its the only way to update the payroll module. Support with them is excellent, even at tax year end

I wouldnt buy it instead of a 4 sider.

[kevob]

For me doing site joinery I use the following

Maxcut - panel optimiser for layouts (free)- also does estimating but I don't use the function
Planswift - take offs from pdf drawings (£900)- also does estimating but I don't use the function
Quickbooks premier (£300) - crm, estimating, purchase orders, job costings, invoicing, accounting,VAT returns, reporting, time sheets
T sheets - app for employees to enter times against jobs - sends data to quickbooks (£30 per month)